Last post on Sep 08, 2008 at 5:39 PM
You are in the Speed Shop Tuning and Modification
What is this discussion about?
Performance Mods, Coupe, Convertible, Hatchback
#4 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [carlisimo]
by MrShift@Edmunds HOST
Jan 11, 2006 (3:10 pm)
I understand and agree completely...but I was thinking that there are some cars where it really is a complete waste of time to try and get any decent performance out of it...contrary to popular belief, you can't really just "add up" the promised HP from each individual component. Or you create driveability problems that make your car much less pleasant to operate.
#5 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [Mr_Shiftright]
Jan 14, 2006 (11:32 am)
The problem with the topic is that those cars you would include don't have an interest so no one is going to mention them. The ones that get lots of attention, asian rockets, Mustang, Corvette are all in work so people don't care what others think except at the end of the project.
The real issue for me is that the original question is driven by two points, do you have more money or more time(given some talent)? Then given a or b, what do you want to do with those two factors? For most people there is no question that they have more time compared to money. In my case, no talent, I'll keep a stock machine and continue to try and improve driving skills but that does seem again to be in the minority. Most I see on the track have done lots of their own work and the work is almost as much fun to them as the result. For me the work is seat time and the result is little improvements that I recognize as I get a better line or higher rpm exit from a specific corner. Having lots of different tracks to practice helps as well.
#6 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [Mr_Shiftright]
Jan 18, 2006 (5:41 am)
"but I was thinking that there are some cars where it really is a complete waste of time to try and get any decent performance out of it"
When you said this, one immediately came to mind - Mitsu 3000GT. Car is heavy, and had mediocre performance to begin with (VR-4 models excluded). If I recall correctly, they also had some pretty sophisticated computer components on them too (for their time anyway). Not to mention, I would assume they are pretty expensive for a 20 something year old to insure.
Point being, if you were going to buy one of these for $10,000 (just a guess for what an unmolested, decent one would go for), you could easily add $5,000 worth of goodies to it (CAI, exhaust, chip, tuneup, tires, wheels), and still not be where you could be by starting out with something like a $15,000-$18,000 low mileage '99 Mustang GT.
#7 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [1racefan]
Jan 18, 2006 (10:22 am)
The problem is you seem to be talking apples and oranges.
The Stealth/3000 being awd, if I'm correct, are seen on track every so often and being low with lots of grip they do fairly well if a little underpowered for weight.
The Mustang with solid axle, I think, is ok for going to the drags but is not going to do much on a road course without lots of help. As a daily driver I agree, they can be fun, but for performance you are missing a lot with one of them.
#8 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [starrow68]
Jan 18, 2006 (10:54 am)
"The Stealth/3000 being awd, if I'm correct, are seen on track every so often and being low with lots of grip they do fairly well if a little underpowered for weight."
The VR-4 was AWD...The standard and SL models were fwd. The '97 SL model for instance weighed almost 3300#, and had 218hp.
"The problem is you seem to be talking apples and oranges"
Depends on what you consider apples, and what you consider oranges. I am comparing apples to apples in the fact that I am comparing 2 vehicles that have $15,000 invested in them - remember my original example of a $10,000 3000GT (non VR-4 model) with $5,000 worth of mods, vs a $15,000 used Mustang GT??
#9 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [starrow68]
by MrShift@Edmunds HOST
Jan 18, 2006 (4:27 pm)
I think AWD is nasty to drive at serious speeds on a track, but that's another topic of discussion!
Less weight = horsepower and upgraded brakes and steering have got to be worth 50 HP on the track.
#10 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [Mr_Shiftright]
Jan 19, 2006 (9:44 am)
Not that I'm a fan but there seem to be a few out there:
Just so happens that a couple of my coaches/instructors have been 3000 drivers and they do quite well but probably have set ups that are far from stock. Then again, my stock Vette on street tires has the HP advantage and after some time on track seems to pull away. The AWD guys seem to love it on track and I can see some advantages but we all seem to run what you brung!
At the track, road race courses, build fast is most often as you note, upgrade things other than under the hood. There is something to be said for passing a 500hp car that gets on track about twice a year. But then again, my teacher mode kicks in and I usually show them the line and off they go.
#11 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [1racefan]
Jan 19, 2006 (9:50 am)
There are lots of things that cost the same but don't do the same job. That is what I mean for your comparison. The amount of suspension work required to get a Mustang to handle is beyond most and gets messed up more often than not when done by other than a professional. The 3000 otoh is fairly capable out of the box which the Mustang is really not. JMO
The opposite is probably true at the drag strip where I've seen lots of Mustangs and many are set up to run very well, in many cases better than my stock 350hp Corvette on street tires. All about deciding what you want to accomplish with either the purchase or through the after market and not making too many detours.
#12 of 23 I totally agree Randy
Jan 22, 2006 (11:02 pm)
Go to an Open Track Day or Time Trials and just see how well a EVO operates on a road course. Every type of car takes a different driving style. You don't drive a FWD, like a AWD, like a RWD, like a Rear engined car or like a Mid-engined car.
Its all different...
Some cars are hard to modify because they have no aftermarket support. Sorry, but the Neon is most likely the only other car to have challenged the Honda market effectively on the street and tracks of American and Canada.
There is no 10 second Focus, a Focus hasn't won any sort of championship but has a better aftermarket and more smog legal parts than the Neon does.
There's already a two 9 second Neons that could be driven on the street if the desire where there, but they are 100% trailered track cars.
The EVO is the best bargin in a new performance car, period. There isn't another car you can buy brand new for under $30,000 that's a complete giant killer the EVO is, that includes the WRX Sti.
At last count there are 5-6 EVO's, with 2 of them being daily driven that run 9 seconds in the 1/4 and make well over 600hp.
For the total investment for less than a Corvette Z06, you can roast just about anything on the road with one of these in a highly modified state and not advestly effect day to day driving.
A true dual purpose weapon.
I would get just as many props for a hot EVO has I would for some fancy Audi or something. Not to diss Audi, but their cars, even the S series aren't all that fast for as much as they cost.
There so many ways to do things, you have alot of choices making it hard to decide sometimes.
Some would think a twin T67 turbocharged, 5.4L powered Ford Truck would be overkill at 600+hp on 92 octane pump. I say its just about right...
#13 of 23 Just to add...
Jan 22, 2006 (11:08 pm)
The 3000GT VR-4 is a really heavy car and with the crampped engine bay, it makes using upgraded turbos a chore.
That is most likely one of the hardest of the old 90's Japanese supercars to modify effectively.
Actually making a 5Oh handle isn't that much of an issue. For a sizable investment in Griggs racing parts, you can turn your Fox chassis based Mustang into a serious weapon on a road course. Also Saleen and Steeda Mustangs have done very well in showroom stock based competition.
I would venture to argue the newest Mustang is the best handling car yet and a excellent platform to build from.
I think this is where I should mention the Mitsubshi 4G63 turbo engine from a Gen 1 or Gen 2 DSM fits inside some early Hyundais with very little modifcations....
You want a true sleeper? Put one of those into a Hyundai Excel.
Its been done a few times and quite effective...