Last post on Sep 08, 2008 at 4:39 PM
You are in the Speed Shop Tuning and Modification
What is this discussion about?
Performance Mods, Coupe, Convertible, Hatchback
Jan 23, 2006 (8:40 am)
I guess the question isn't so much "CAN you do it" but "SHOULD you bother to do it?"
Now some people will say that just the challenge alone makes doing it worth it, but when I started this topic I was thinking more of general advice to first timers. Should they chuck that Excel or Mitsu 3000 and start with a fresh sheet of paper? Would that make them happier in the end?
Ditto a flexi-flyer 5.0 Mustang. By the time you get that chassis to work for you, might you have been better off with a newer Mustang?
#15 of 23 Re: some comments [Mr_Shiftright]
Jan 23, 2006 (9:35 pm)
Do DIY'ers really think like that? I'm not so sure from what I see. Those that are inclined jump in without thinking it all the way through, in most cases anyway. Where I have seen it is in Corvettes. First thing to add is the supercharger. Then they try to use it and break several other parts before figuring out that stock design for 350hp isn't going to work with 500+hp. Some go all the way and get it pretty sorted but many just back off and never really push the package since they know something else is going to break.
Also with some friends of our daughter got to see the same in Mustangs for a year or so, and some modded right up to the point where it wouldn't run. It would have been funny if it wasn't so sad. I guess that makes the case, at least for me that it shouldn't be done by the back yard guy or gal, but there is always the exception and those are the success stories you mostly hear about. People don't advertise failure. But, on the bright side, these folks are probably keeping some of the manufacturing muscle that is still resident in the lower 48 by creating a fairly low demand for custom parts in the aftermarket. Not all of it comes from across a pond.
Having a stock package that is functional out of the box and with a little experience driving is faster than most on track is really satisfying, at least for me. Laguna Seca was mostly dry last Friday, braking downhill into turn 2 for the morning through runoff over the track was worth some pucker factor (110+mph) but dried off as the day went on. Thunderhill on Saturday was even better but it was a school so with cone chicanes (?) on the straights they kept even the high HP cars under 100 all day.
#16 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [1racefan]
Sep 08, 2008 (8:50 am)
Well if we want to talk fastest performance car for $15,000 why not just go buy a Camaro Z28 for $6,000-8,000 put $7,000-9,000 into it and be running low 11's? I'll never understand why Mustang GT's get so much hype about being great track cars. The f-body is simply a faster car with equivalent mods.
#17 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [fadetoblackii]
by MrShift@Edmunds HOST
Sep 08, 2008 (10:02 am)
It might be faster but quite honestly (no offense intended) the last generation Camaros are about the worst-built car I have ever experienced in my life. They are so cheesy it would be hard for me to own one---even though they are really fun to drive and all that.
#18 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [Mr_Shiftright]
Sep 08, 2008 (10:25 am)
no offense taken... friend of mine has had two of them (V6's but I understand the build quality was about the same across the board) and they were pretty cheap interiors...
that said, the thread was about cheap speed, not interior quality. If you want a good interior AND speed, I'd say an '05 GTO would be the choice over a mustang of the same year.... I'm admittedly a GM fanboy when it comes to muscle cars, but even so, the GTO is faster, handles better (thank you IRS), and according to most sources has one of the best interiors available in any GM product. Tack on a pedders suspension kit for $3-4k and some bolt on engine mods and there's your street friendly mustang killer...
#19 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [fadetoblackii]
Sep 08, 2008 (11:31 am)
Can't I buy a late 90s C5 Vette for less than an '05 GTO? If my goal is all around performance, wouldn't the C5 be a far better car?
#20 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [lemmer]
Sep 08, 2008 (12:50 pm)
Well, that's kind of apples to oranges, but ok, I'll play...
According to Edmunds' own rating system:
A '98 Vette (best engine, cheapest price) that's fairly well optioned with average yearly miles (12K/yr) will run ~$12,700 (private party), while an '05 GTO with average miles will run ~$18,400.
So yes, you can buy a C5 for less money. You'll also be getting a car that's probably been beaten up to some degree whereas the GTO is still new enough that it's not likely to need any major repairs yet. The GTO also has a better (though slightly) motor to build on (LS2 instead of LS1 for the Vette). If performance is your goal then I'll leave off all that nonsense about the great GTO interior and the Vette's less than perfect interior or anything about standard options, daily driveability, # of seats, etc...
The Vette will probably be faster around a circuit course where handling is key due to it's lower weight, and lower center of gravity. However, when both were new, the '98 coupe vette ran a 13.3 1/4 mile and the '05 GTO ran a 13.3 1/4 mile (exoticcar.com). The same site has the Vette running 0-60 in 4.7 and the GTO in 4.8.
Simply put, the GTO (due to weight) might be a little more sluggish around the corners, but just as fast on the straights. If you want a pure performance car for the money, and don't mind it having a little age/wear then the Vette is probably a better bet, but not by much. You're paying $5,000 less for a car with a lot more miles, and similar performance.
However, if you take two cars of something closer to the same year (i.e. the vette and GTO are about 7 years apart) and compare the '98 Vette to a '98 Camaro then you've gotta take the Camaro. Once again you'd be sacrificing some things (a nicer interior, handling, etc) for a car thats cheaper to make go fast.
When they were both new (even according to Edmunds) the only edge the Vette had over the Camaro was prestige and styling. It was $15,000 more expensive and not $15,000 faster. It's up to you to decide if a '98 Vette would be $5,000 faster than a '98 Camaro. By the same token, it'd be up to you to decide if the '05 GTO would be $6,000 better than the '98 Vette. It all depends on what you wanna do with them...
#21 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [fadetoblackii]
Sep 08, 2008 (1:36 pm)
Camaro, I served with Corvette. I knew Corvette. Corvette was a friend of mine. Camaro, you're no Corvette.
#22 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [lemmer]
Sep 08, 2008 (1:42 pm)
True enough. When it comes down to it, I guess there's no substitute for personal preference.
#23 of 23 Re: Buy Fast or Build Fast---How Do You Decide? [fadetoblackii]
Sep 08, 2008 (4:39 pm)
There are several factors in play here.
What is the car being used for? Racing? Street driving/cruising? Showing? etc.
There are several schools of thought in the racing world on build v. buy.
Pros and cons to both.
Build: Pros- you know the car is solid, it's custom for you, you may already own it.
Cons- Usually costs more, more time involved, more shakedown time
Buy: Pros- Cheaper, quicker Cons- Sometimes fall apart w/o notice, less personal interest, not custom to your desires.