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Sedans Honda Civic Honda Civic vs Mazda3
1333 messages, Last post on Jun 06, 2008 at 5:37 PM
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And it lost its first major American comparo. My wife and I recently test drove an 06 Civic EX coupe with 5MT, and an 06 Mazda 3s with 5MT and Moonroof package. We also took a new Jetta and a Scion tC out for a spin last week, although with tC we had to settle with an automatic tranny. Let me just say that I am biased towards Mazda, as today we just got a delivery of the 3s that we test drove. We got it down to $40 over the Edmunds invoice, and we used the Mazda Zoom Zoom live coupon which made it about $500 below invoice. But even without the coupon, you can definetely have a comparably equipped 3 for the same or less money than the new Civic. (which means worse resale, I know) For those of you that seemed rather disturbed by the result of the comparo, I don't think you need to. You guys are right in that what MOST people look for in an economy car are not performance numbers, but things like standard safety features, fuel economy, and resale values. In fact, you can be rest assured that the Civic will sell as well as it always has, easily outselling the 3. But I don't think that car magazines need to abandon the perspective of car enthusiasts and cater to the taste of general public. If you want to know what "everyone" thinks is good, you don't have to read a car mag or log onto a car website. Just ask your friends and neighbors. Or better yet, read CR. I think it's important to note that the new Civic is not only a new design, but a new design focused specifically on the people that look for something fun in an economy car. I can't remember how many times Honda USA talked about getting back the young/tuner crowd with the new Civic before they released the new gen. And I think they did a great job. We were quite impressed with the 5MT EX coupe that we drove. Quick, feelsome steering, revvy engine, (although not THAT revvy in Honda standard) floor hinged gas pedal, and nice body control. (I'm guessing the sedan may not be as good) I think its hip design in and out will play a big roll in getting back its tuner appeal. But in the end, the Civic still felt to us like an economy car, albeit a very good one at that. It was very fun and lively, and I really enjoyed driving it. But to me, it was fun in the typical small, light car way. It just didn't feel like a car that's asking to be driven hard, and it wasn't particularly confidence-inspiring. On the other hand, after taking a few corners in the 3, I felt that it had the chassis not of an economy car, but of a genuinely well tuned sports sedan. Now I'm not claiming to be a performance guru, but the car definitely wowed me with the body control that I was NOT expecting in this segment. And frankly, pulling 0.87G repeatedly on those mediocre Goodyear (edit: not Toyo) all seasons is very difficult for ANY car. It's important not because of the number itself, but because it tells me about the supreme suspension tuning. But it wasn't only that. The whole package just felt above the class. In fact, after testdriving the nice but un-memorable new Jetta a week after, I couldn't agree more with the Edmunds' comment on 3. "it's the new Jetta VW should've built" All this made me feel quite threatened, since that meant my wife may get a car that's not only nicer, but in fact handles better than my WRX wagon. (Time for some REAL good summer tires!) But sometimes a man needs to except his fate, given that he will have ample opportunities to steal his wife's car for late night drives.  So, yes, I don't think my wife and I represent the most typical demographics of economy car buyers, even though we ARE in our late 20-s with no kids and stable but not spectacular income. We are willing to sacrifice some fuel economy for fun, and we own our cars for over 6~7 years so resale is not that big of a factor. And apparently there are still enough of people like us, judging by how well the 3 has been selling. And I'm glad that Edmunds decided to represent the point of view that many young enthusiasts like me have. P.S. besides, all you honda fans have nothing to complain about, the Civic got the M/T car of the year. You greedy Honda fanboys! 
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Replying to: JBaumgart (Dec 27, 2005 8:55 pm) |
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Replying to: warner (Dec 27, 2005 7:54 pm) Agreed. I do not believe in "book" pricing. It doesn't hold water in any type of medium that I've ever dealt in, and I've seen it not hold water in particular with cars. I've seen it firsthand with my Hyundai and my Honda, working in opposite directions. If you trust the books, I've got some Hummels to sell you......book prices on them are easily 4 times what you could expect to get for them if you tried to sell them. Show me some auction prices from actual auto auctions....THOSE numbers actually mean something. In fact, eBay is not a bad place to get an idea of what market value is for any given item. How do the eBay numbers stack up when you compare the two vehicles? (I haven't checked, so maybe the 3's are bringing MORE than the Civics...and if this is the case, I WILL believe those numbers, because they actually mean something). Ebay wouldn't be a fair representation of the market prices because it represents such a small number of sales. The same goes for auto auctions- nothing goes to auction if it can be sold in another way. Auto auctions are a way to unload undesirable or otherwise difficult to sell vehicles. Any dealer can tell you that you won't get anywhere near a decent price at auction. Also, comparing car pricing to antique/art pricing is not accurate. Antiques/art appeals to a limited number of people. I do watch Antiques Roadshow sometimes and hear them qualify some appraisals by saying it would be worth XXX to XXX if you can find the right buyer. Car values for Kelly Blue Book, Edmunds or most any other auto pricing guide are established based on THOUSANDS or even TENS OF THOUSANDS of transactions. Car values are much like real estate in that they can fairly easily established based on past performance. The fact that the pricing guides place the Mazda3 and Civic within one percentage point of each other proves that they have almost identical depreciation, even if you don't agree with the dollar amounts of either! We're obviously not going to agree on this, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just think if pricing guides were/are so unreliable, the entire auto sales industry would have collapsed by now.
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Replying to: xqu (Dec 27, 2005 8:14 pm) Or better yet, wait for the Civic Si sedan comes out next year then compare it with the Mazda 3S. It appears they were comparing the highest trim level each offered. I think the 3 s Touring model which would have had a sticker of $20,015 ($405 more than Civic EX). Though, according to Edmunds TMV and virtually every other car pricing website, the Mazda would cost at least $500 less than Civic so equipped. The 3 i Touring would have beaten Honda's pricing by even more. Also, according to a Consumer Reports test, the 150hp version of the 3 would still outperform the Civic EX by over .5 second 0-60. Of course, the Honda would still win in fuel economy.
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Replying to: allfiredup (Dec 27, 2005 8:53 pm) I bet Hyundai or Mitsu would like those numbers for their 3 door sporty coupes(Tiburon and Eclipse).  Anyhow, sounds like Mazda did some price lowering, versus 15 months ago. Civic is ok. Just in my area, the dealerships like to say" they are flying off of the lots; pay MSRP". Said it last year, said it this year. If they are like that when they try to make a conquest sale(trying? More like not trying at all, seemed to us) what would they be like if you had a warranty issue? Someone said to use one of those quote request things. Maybe next time. Anyhow, all 3 are good. if we talk prices only, you can now get some V6's, for 15,999-17,999, like Sonata on sale, Pontiac G6 sedan/V6, coupe is also, or was, on sale, for about 20K v6(200hp version, 32 MPG hwy, they claim), Fusion? Can get a Tibby V6 loaded up, for 18K or so, MSRP(and argue about 1000 off of that, for 17K V6) As for rear seat room on tC? had 5 adults(6 ft tall to as short as 5'7") in the car . No one complained, Tiny bit cramped, but you use the reclining back seat(like the front seats back part reclines some).... it all seems to be good. Maybe not good for a 300 mile trip, lol. 60 minutes? No problems. just depends on what you want, or if one is buying "what is the most vehicle I can get for my money, bar-none"? Take Care-Not Offense. |
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In Asia and many countries I know, car or motorcycle buyers/owners give a premier to those actually manufactured in Japan due to a perceived better quality control/workmanship. This premier factor affects the product prices and/or decision of buyers. Civics are manufactured in North America and Mazda3 in Japan. This point has not been mentioned in the comparison discussion. Would this factor, especially in the borderline cases, affect the decision of some buyers here?
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Replying to: warner (Dec 27, 2005 8:08 pm) If you put it that way probably I guess the Civic. You would probably be dead either way. If I thought this kind of scenario was anything but I minute possibility I would not be looking a compact car in the first place. Again prefer to take measures to avoid the situation than to deal with the consequences. I think my eating habits are likely to have have more of an impact on when I cash in my chips then what we are discussing here. As for my wife and kids well, see above comments. They should eat better too. My wife drives a 92' Civic (with no SRS) and she will not part with it. I offered to let her have the next new car but she declined. BTW Congrats on your new car, glad you like it which is all that matters at the end of the day.
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Replying to: allfiredup (Dec 27, 2005 9:09 pm) Agreed. I do not believe in "book" pricing. It doesn't hold water in any type of medium that I've ever dealt in, and I've seen it not hold water in particular with cars. I've seen it firsthand with my Hyundai and my Honda, working in opposite directions. If you trust the books, I've got some Hummels to sell you......book prices on them are easily 4 times what you could expect to get for them if you tried to sell them. Show me some auction prices from actual auto auctions....THOSE numbers actually mean something. In fact, eBay is not a bad place to get an idea of what market value is for any given item. How do the eBay numbers stack up when you compare the two vehicles? (I haven't checked, so maybe the 3's are bringing MORE than the Civics...and if this is the case, I WILL believe those numbers, because they actually mean something). Ebay wouldn't be a fair representation of the market prices because it represents such a small number of sales. The same goes for auto auctions- nothing goes to auction if it can be sold in another way. Auto auctions are a way to unload undesirable or otherwise difficult to sell vehicles. Any dealer can tell you that you won't get anywhere near a decent price at auction. My point wasn't to take the actual dollar numbers from either of these venues, it was to compare what the Civic brings at them vs what the Mazda brings at them. Which one sells for how much? It wasn't meant to represent what they are actually selling for on dealer lots. Auction prices DO mean a lot. Since it's mostly dealers buying the cars at auction, THEY know what they can sell a car for, and they are bidding against other dealers who also know what a particular car will sell for. Also, comparing car pricing to antique/art pricing is not accurate. Antiques/art appeals to a limited number of people. I do watch Antiques Roadshow sometimes and hear them qualify some appraisals by saying it would be worth XXX to XXX if you can find the right buyer. Agreed. Just as used cars appeal to a limited number of people. I don't understand your point. Believe me when I tell you that art dealers are every BIT as agressive as auto dealers, and then some. There are far more resources for fine art (that are based on actual auction results, that give where, when, and how much it sold for) than there are for used auto sales. Car values for Kelly Blue Book, Edmunds or most any other auto pricing guide are established based on THOUSANDS or even TENS OF THOUSANDS of transactions. Really? Where do they publish how they arrive at those numbers? Car values are much like real estate in that they can fairly easily established based on past performance. The fact that the pricing guides place the Mazda3 and Civic within one percentage point of each other proves that they have almost identical depreciation, even if you don't agree with the dollar amounts of either! I'm sorry, but I cannot accept that as true until someone can point me to some actual sales. I know what KBB and Edmunds said the value of my Hyundai should have been, and I FINALLY sold it for a little more than HALF of what they said it should be. How do you explain that? I tried multiple venues (including getting an offer from Carmax) but the real-world numbers fell WELL short of any of those publications estimates. We're obviously not going to agree on this, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just think if pricing guides were/are so unreliable, the entire auto sales industry would have collapsed by now. We already established that we don't agree about this. I've been trying to explain WHY I don't agree with it. Why would the entire auto industry be affected at all if the pricing guides were unreliable? I don't follow your logic. Warner |
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Replying to: gosteelerz (Dec 28, 2005 5:01 am) If you put it that way probably I guess the Civic. You would probably be dead either way. If I thought this kind of scenario was anything but I minute possibility I would not be looking a compact car in the first place. Again prefer to take measures to avoid the situation than to deal with the consequences. I think my eating habits are likely to have have more of an impact on when I cash in my chips then what we are discussing here. As for my wife and kids well, see above comments. They should eat better too. My wife drives a 92' Civic (with no SRS) and she will not part with it. I offered to let her have the next new car but she declined. BTW Congrats on your new car, glad you like it which is all that matters at the end of the day. Thanks. And though these debates may seem heated, they are all in good fun and I don't get upset and hope you aren't either. Hey, I've been wrong before and I may be now, too. But in this case I'd really like to be proven wrong...and which point (if it happens) I'll actually ADMIT that I was wrong. Warner PS - I like your wife already! Can't pry that old Civic steering wheel from her hands, huh? Hahaha....
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