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Civic Hybrid vx Civic LX - How many miles before I break even? - READ ONLY

34 messages,  Last post on Feb 22, 2008 at 7:30 PM

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Messages Page 4 of 4

#28 of 34 Re: add in brakes and oil changes and time [eaa] by roundtrip

Jun 21, 2006 (9:45 pm)

Replying to: eaa (Mar 31, 2006 3:23 pm)
I hear ya! Wish I had the courage, extra cash, and ability to convince my spouse to buy the hybrid instead of the Civic LX/EX (whatever we get the best deal on) automatic. I drive 1400 + miles/month (mostly on hwy.) However, I don't know if I'm smart enough to do the math on my savings. In addition, I'm one of those drivers who would have to relearn how to drive.(And according to one of the posts, I should probably change my habits anyway. That speeding ticket last month ate $151.00 of my savings.)
Thanks for doing more than your fair share for the environment.

#29 of 34 resurrecting an oldie.... by kenlw

May 08, 2007 (6:43 pm)

Actually (I do cost analysis on a daily basis) the original post's logic was pretty good. The later spiel about comparing mirrors and 4w disk was a bit bizarre....
 
Anyway, the biggest flaw in hybrids is the life of the batteries. Not only does the warranty drop at 100k, the real world life expectancy isn't much more than that. So if you get luck and beat the expectancy by 50% (really long odds, btw) and get 150k from them, you've simply got to pay many, many $1000s to replace them at that point which basically fries the payback schedule.
 
If you don't, the residual value (resale related) will be virtually nil. Altho I usually avoid any resale factors by driving them 'til the wheels fall off... this one is a bit large to ignore.
 
For the most part, the cost justification must be based on a 100k life (or perhaps 150k if you feel lucky) or include the hefty maintenance costs. I think that all the other maintenance costs (water pump, belts, etc) are pretty much a wash between the 2 vehicles.
 
Buy a hybrid because you want to, and I will never argue with you. But get into justifying it $$-wise, and I might challenge it a bit.

#30 of 34 Re: resurrecting an oldie.... [kenlw] by stevedebi

May 09, 2007 (11:38 am)

Replying to: kenlw (May 08, 2007 6:43 pm)
"Anyway, the biggest flaw in hybrids is the life of the batteries. Not only does the warranty drop at 100k, the real world life expectancy isn't much more than that."
 
In CARB states, the hybrid system (including batteries) is warranted for 10 years / 150K miles. Other states: 8 years / 120K.

#31 of 34 except.... by kenlw

May 09, 2007 (7:36 pm)

..realize that it is "which ever comes first". But good point. That wasn't the case when we did the analysis several years ago. Technology marches on.
 
But realize the cost of that waranty is built into the price you pay upfront and is very difficult to determine. Now that hybrids are slower selling and production has increased, some discounts are available which should sweeten the pot, tilting some of the financial factors back in their direction.

#32 of 34 Re: Civic Hybrid vx Civic LX - How many miles before I break even? [warner] by pchristenson

Feb 22, 2008 (3:24 pm)

Replying to: warner (Dec 16, 2005 12:46 pm)
I had a discussion with one of my wife's co workers yesterday regarding how long it would take to recoup the price difference between a new Civic Hybrid versus a Civic LX. Here's what I came up with:
   
How long it takes to make up the price difference on a Hybrid
  The non-hybrid Civic is rated at 30 City/ 40 Highway.
The non-hybrid Civic is now rated at 25 City/ 36 Highway.
 
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=23502-
 
 The Hybrid is rated at 50 both city and highway.
The hybrid Civic is now rated at 40 City/ 45 Highway.
 
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectEngine.jsp?year=2007&make=Honda&m- odel=Civic%20Hybrid
 
 So we’ll take the non-hybrid at an average of 35mpg and the Hybrid at 50mpg.
 
Actually the EPA sets the non-hybrid at an average of 29mpg and the Hybrid at 42mpg.
 
  The non-hybrid Civic model that the Hybrid most closely competes with is the LX model. The MSRP on the Hybrid is $22,400 and it is typically selling for $2,000 over MSRP, but there is also a tax credit for 2006 on Hybrid vehicles so we’ll call it a wash and say the Hybrid sells at MSRP.
  
The non-hybrid Civic model that the Hybrid most closely competes with is the LX model. The MSRP on the Hybrid is $22,400 and it is typically selling for $1,000 under MSRP, and there is also a $1050 tax credit for 2008 on Hybrid vehicles so we’ll say the Hybrid sells at $20,400.
 
The LX model with automatic has an MSRP of $17,869 or $4,531 less than the Hybrid. Dealers are typically more willing to deal on the LX than they are on the Hybrid, but we’ll leave that out of this equation. So we’re starting with a $4,531 deficit for buying the Hybrid (again, not figuring in the extra finance charges on that money if one were financing the purchase).
 
The LX model with automatic has an MSRP of $17,760 or $2640 less than the Hybrid. Dealers are typically more willing to deal on the LX than they are on the Hybrid, but we’ll leave that out of this equation. So we’re starting with a $2640 deficit for buying the Hybrid (again, not figuring in the extra finance charges on that money if one were financing the purchase).
   
So how long does it take to recoup our more than $2640 deficit? Read on…..
  
If gas costs $2.50 a gallon here’s how much the Hybrid recovers at a given mileage:
  
 
NOT BE SEEN IN OUR LIFETIME AGAIN 
   
If gas costs $3.00 a gallon here’s how much the Hybrid recovers at a given mileage:
  
At 50,000 miles the non-hybrid has used 1724 gallons of gas, which cost $5172 while the Hybrid has used 1190 gallons of gas, which cost $3570. The Hybrid has recovered $1602 at this point.
  
At 50,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $1602
  

#33 of 34 Re: Civic Hybrid vx Civic LX - How many miles before I break even? [pchristenson] by pchristenson

Feb 22, 2008 (3:26 pm)

Replying to: pchristenson (Feb 22, 2008 3:24 pm)
So how long does it take to recoup our more than $2640 deficit? Read on…..
  
If gas costs $2.50 a gallon here’s how much the Hybrid recovers at a given mileage:
  
 
NOT BE SEEN IN OUR LIFETIME AGAIN 
   
If gas costs $3.00 a gallon here’s how much the Hybrid recovers at a given mileage:
  
At 50,000 miles the non-hybrid has used 1724 gallons of gas, which cost $5172 while the Hybrid has used 1190 gallons of gas, which cost $3570. The Hybrid has recovered $1602 at this point.
  
At 50,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $1602
 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<BREAK EVEN At 100,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $3204 At 150,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $4806 At 200,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $6408 At 250,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $8010 If gas costs $3.50 a gallon here’s how much the Hybrid recovers at a given mileage: At 50,000 miles the non-hybrid has used 1724 gallons of gas, which cost $6034 while the Hybrid has used 1190 gallons of gas, which cost $4165. The Hybrid has recovered $1,869 at this point. At 50,000 miles, the Hybrid has recovered $1869 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<BREAK EVEN At 100,000 miles, the Hybrid has recovered $3738 At 150,000 miles, the Hybrid has recovered $5607 At 200,000 miles, the Hybrid has recovered $7476 At 250,000 miles, the Hybrid has recovered $9345 So at $3.50 a gallon, we’d have to drive about LESS THAN 80,000 miles to break even

#34 of 34 After break in cost? by carcrazy17

Feb 22, 2008 (7:30 pm)

And some of you are saying "the battery pack costs a lot of money and it will negate the cost of the fuel savings.
Well, can the battery pack last 200,000 miles?
 
According to clean green car and the Honda site: http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-civic
www.hondacars.com
 
The battery was designed to last 10 years of normal driving? The honda civic hybrid battery also has an 8 year 80K mile warrantee. So that is about 15K per year according to their "lease" program. So after 150K miles you will have to replace the battery pack. Cost about 3000 us dollars (price could fall as more battery packs are replaced)
 
So one must also ask the lost of fuel mileage "as the battery ages" due to the battery pack losing its efficiency. These figures I can not find, yet.
 
So, using the above figures, at 250K miles the hybrid as recovered 9345 dollars. minus 3000 for the battery pack (if yo do the work yourself) and minus the cost of replacing the brake regenerators at about 100 dollars(estimate only per wheel: Lets use 345 dollars for the sake of even numbers)
 
We are still ahead 6000 dollars at 250K miles. Looks like I will be shopping for a Civic Hybrid soon, unless they come out with a diesel civic.
 That is a whole different ball park. It gets really interesting if one makes their own biodiesel like a certain friend of mine does for his diesel trucks. Yep, very different ballpark indeed.

Messages Page 4 of 4

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