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Maintenance & Repair Winter Driving - are you prepared?
149 messages, Last post on Aug 19, 2009 at 8:38 AM
You are in the Maintenance & Repair Forum. Your Host is mr_shiftright
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First, the "cause" for the state laws not allowing downhill coasting in neutral have long since passed. In days even before my time vehicular braking systems were sort of the "hang on and pray" type. So the gearbox was always then an important part of the braking system, often a VERY important part. And also not having synchros in the gearbox made it damn near impossible to put it back into gear once a level of speed had been attained wherein you now required braking. And keep in mind that FWD and F/AWD vehicles were not as commonplace in the days those laws went on the books. So.. You are driving a F/AWD vehicle. Front engine torque biased (70/30 F/R) AWD vehicle. One of the foremost hazards, if not the MOST hazardous, in driving a FWD or F/AWD vehicle is inadvertent engine compression braking on the front, driven, wheels. You may notice that NO modern day FWD or F/AWD vehicle will automatically downshift during lift throttle coastdown, at any lower, lowering, speed absent the driver applying the brakes as a "signal" of the driver's awareness (hopefully...!!) of tractive roadbed conditions. So, coasting downhill on a slippery ice or snow covered roadbed in a FWD or F/AWD, slip the tranny into neutral, just as advised by none other than the AAA, and be SAFER. Or open the diff'l/PTO, remove the center diff'l's front drive spider gear, weld the rear spider gear in place so you have a much more safe RWD vehicle. If you have a VC then let the VC drive the front conditionally. Now you have a R/AWD RX350. Much safer....
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Replying to: wwest (Jan 01, 2009 1:11 pm) You've harped on how dangerous FWD rigs are going downhill in the snow for years now. I'd be curious to see some links to accidents caused by such activity (or even links that you think could be attributed to your theory). I'd like to see a link to the AAA's statement too (I don't have access to their print publications). You can skip the links going to your posts around the net.  I'll go nose around the NHTSA until I hear back from you. (someone drove off the road going up this morning and plunged 150', fwiw. Can't tell if the rig is FWD or RWD or some flavor of 4WD - KTVB). |
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 01, 2009 1:27 pm) Your local Porsche club has an event every year involving that "road" but I have yet to have been in the area to particpate. You might keep an eye out for a '79 Forrest Green 911 Targa with gold BBS 3 piece wheels and NYSSA license plates. North of you, McCall, there is now a '78 Seafoam Green (light metallic green) 911 Targa also with gold BBS 3 piece wheels. You're invited to breakfast or dinner at the Cracker Barrel if all three of us manage to make the event this year. Personally I would NEVER drive that downhill run in the wintertime in a FWD automatic, one with a clutch, maybe, but each to his own. IMMHO leaving a 4WD/4X4 in "locked" mode would probably be just as bad, HAZARDOUS, as FWD. In my opinion that is only ONE flavor of 4WD and yet another for a 4X4 (4WD w/low range) but a myriad of "flavors" of AWD.
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Replying to: wwest (Jan 01, 2009 1:11 pm)  The original question had to do with saving fuel and that was dispatched appropriately. First, the "cause" for the state laws not allowing downhill coasting in neutral have long since passed. Sorry, but you don't get to decide which laws are obsolete and can be neglected. Your pet theories won't hold water in a court of law and, in my humble opinion, it is irresponsible to advise others to ignore those laws. There are legislative procedures for repealing "obsolete" laws but until that is done they remain in force. In the meantime, if engine braking is excessive for your descent, then switch to a higher gear. You won't waste gas and you'll be in compliance with the law. tidester, host SUVs and Smart Shopper
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Replying to: wwest (Jan 01, 2009 2:51 pm) I'd love to meet you at the Cracker Barrel (even if their ice box pie is kept frozen harder than a rock ). I'd even ride shotgun with you on the road - one of these years I'm going to remember to go watch the Bacchanalia. Or we can go skiing/riding up there (you can even drive my Outback).
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 01, 2009 1:27 pm) Well, first of all, brake pads are rather cheap to purchase and damnish easy to install vs transaxle clutch surfacing and install. But the more important point for me is your seeming willingness to put yourself, your passengers, and others on the road at risk only to conserve brake pads (and/or to make a point). There is, of course, the issue of overheating the brake components and thereby losing almost all, or all, braking capability but that can be prevented by pulling over once in awhile to allow them to cool. Our '71 Ford Station Wagon (oft referred to as the "Queen Mary", HEAVY, she was) was quite subject to that problem but mostly only on the downhill run from Mission Ridge outside Wenatchee. But think about ABS, what does it do, why is it so gold-darn important...?? ABS has the ability to release braking on the front wheels (where 70-80% of brake HP is applied/expended) so you can still maintain directional control while braking as heavily (almost..) as conditions allow. How would you alleviate your van's 2nd gear engine compression braking to regain or maintain directional control on your FWD minivan should the need inadvertently arise...?? Quickly shift into neutral..?? That's why the AAA recommends practicing being able, and prepared, to quickly shift into neutral should the need inadvertently arise. (Hint: Knowing the "road", IT WILL...!!)
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 01, 2009 3:05 pm) About half way down the page. "...If your front wheels skid..." |
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Replying to: wwest (Jan 01, 2009 3:12 pm) As you may recall, Bogus Basin road is a narrow two lane road. There are lots of pull-outs but they are intended for letting people pass you, not for parking while your brakes cool down. I'll try to remember to snap a photo of the no parking signage next trip up. In all my 20 winters in Anchorage driving almost exclusively a FWD sedan and FWD minivans, I never experienced the back end passing me coming down the hill from Arctic Valley or just cruising around the area. And I'm not that skilled a driver.
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm) Does it simply mean yaw is out of whack, out of line, or could it mean that the vehicle is still moving in the desired direction, say straight ahead, but the wheels are "locked" (skidding..??) due to low roadbed traction and engine compression braking (you choose, front, rear, or all four). Dangerous, potentially, either way, right...?? Back in my days in MT I would often get down a slippery downhill slope, steep slope, (RWD/Auto) by lightly applying the e-brake. There were two positive effects from that, slight braking and sort of an anchor at the rear helping to hold the car in line, the behind remaining behind the front. Now think about why that may not work with FWD or F/AWD. You might ask why I didn't simply downshift, as you do. "control" |
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