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The UAW and Domestic Automakers - READ ONLY

3659 messages,  Last post on Sep 19, 2006 at 6:21 PM

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Messages Page 365 of 366

#3640 of 3659 Re: Current Retirees [corsicachevy] by rockylee

Sep 19, 2006 (12:13 pm)

Replying to: corsicachevy (Sep 19, 2006 11:53 am)
So if you cut off 400,000 people then what ? Where are people like my grandfather going to go ? to the guillotine ?
 
I honestly believe GM, can be managed to profitability. 401K plans weren't offered years ago and GM, wanted to keep pension plans as the only retirement source.
 
GM, can and should fully fund it's obligations. They have wasted billions in buisness deals that otherwise could of went to their pension obligations.
 
General Motors, like GE, made choices. GE, paid up there obligations and now the fund is self-supportive with nearly 30 billion in it. GM needs to take 15 Billion and create a huge pension fund that is self supportive and once the retirees all die off then it will be a lump sum of dough they can use at a later date. Unfortunatley the fund would probably get redistributed to all the shair-holders and/or used for golden parachutes for top executives.
 
Rocky

#3641 of 3659 Re: ford is allowed to hire temps not at full pay!!! [62vetteefp] by rockylee

Sep 19, 2006 (12:23 pm)

Replying to: 62vetteefp (Sep 19, 2006 11:53 am)
GM is reducing their workforce with no loss in wages.
 
What ? A pension is half the pay of working full time.
 
A very small change in health care but not much else.
 
Just wait until March rolls around and we'll see.
 
This is such a win for the union guys. They get out with money in their pockets.
 
That depends on how many years you have.
 
Most other companies just tell them to go home and stay there.
 
That is why unions were formed to protect workers via a contract so they don't have to leave with nothing.
It's not a golden parachute like a suit would get, but it's better than nothing I suppose.
 
Rocky

#3642 of 3659 Cut Off? by corsicachevy

Sep 19, 2006 (12:31 pm)

Rocky - Who said anything about cutting off pension benefits? Retirees may have to lose half of their pension benefits and completely lose their health care plan or accept a stripped down version thereof. Not a complete loss, but a significant reduction.
 
The opportunity cost of diverting billions of dollars into the pension fund would fatally wound GM. While GM can pay their pension obligations, it can't afford to. There's a difference.
 
GE is and has been a lot more profitable than GM. I'm not confident that GM would have survived if it had diverted its resources into its pension fund. It simply isn't a sustainable structure.

#3643 of 3659 Re: Cut Off? [corsicachevy] by rockylee

Sep 19, 2006 (12:51 pm)

Replying to: corsicachevy (Sep 19, 2006 12:31 pm)
Rocky - Who said anything about cutting off pension benefits? Retirees may have to lose half of their pension benefits and completely lose their health care plan or accept a stripped down version thereof. Not a complete loss, but a significant reduction.
 
Well you'd send every retiree back to work since anymore of a significant reduction in benefits would kill retirement for the majority of retirees. It's not like they are making alot of dough being retired. Dad, took the early out and he is getting $2700 a month plus still has bills. Step-mom went after a better job to make up the difference since she is 10 yrs younger than him. If they have to pay even more healthcare coverage or if the pension plan is scrapped and sent to the pension guarantee corp that will send dad back to work since he wouldn't have any health benefits and only half the income coming in. People like my grand-dad aren't fit to work anymore and he requires a cocktail worth of pharmaceutical drugs to keep him "balanced" in his health.
 
The pension fund is sustainable if mamagement makes the right choices when bringing product to the marketplace. If GM, for instances brings Azteks, Catera's, 4-6-2 engines, etc to market sure the pension plan isn't sustainable.
The UAW workers shouldn't have to pay for managements incompentence. CEO's are paid millions a yr. in salary and if they can't work it all out then they should get the guillotine. I don't understand why it's so hard to turn-around a company like GM. It's not like the 400 pound Gorilla is preventing them from doing it. The answers are obvious that even a simple mind such as mine can figure it out.
 
Rocky

#3644 of 3659 Re: Cut Off? [corsicachevy] by rockylee

Sep 19, 2006 (12:54 pm)

Replying to: corsicachevy (Sep 19, 2006 12:31 pm)
The opportunity cost of diverting billions of dollars into the pension fund would fatally wound GM. While GM can pay their pension obligations, it can't afford to. There's a difference.
 
Not if they would of over-funded the pension obligations 50 or 60 years ago like GE. GE, obviously had better more future thinking management than GM.
 
GE is and has been a lot more profitable than GM. I'm not confident that GM would have survived if it had diverted its resources into its pension fund. It simply isn't a sustainable structure.
 
See above post for your answer.
 
Rocky

#3645 of 3659 Re: Cut Off? [rockylee] by rockylee

Sep 19, 2006 (1:01 pm)

Replying to: rockylee (Sep 19, 2006 12:54 pm)
GE is and has been a lot more profitable than GM. I'm not confident that GM would have survived if it had diverted its resources into its pension fund. It simply isn't a sustainable structure.
 
-I'll add this to it. GM, has approx $25-30 billion that we know of. I honestly believe they have billions more stashed away in foreign banks. Delphi as poor as they were has $11 billion in Asian banks and $16 billion in European bank accounts. The Delphi bankruptcy was this nations largest and they used the loopholes in our laws to file bankruptcy and rid or reduce union obligations at tax-payer expenses according to the UAW lawyers that did investigations to counter the Delphi bankruptcy. Enron, isn't the only corporation that is fruadulating the workers and tax-payers in this country. Former Senator John Edwards, has attempted to get law makers to pass legistlation to close these loopholes which I personally signed on to and sent to my congressmen.
 
Rocky
 

#3646 of 3659 Re: ford is allowed to hire temps not at full pay!!! [rockylee] by w9cw

Sep 19, 2006 (1:33 pm)

Replying to: rockylee (Sep 19, 2006 12:23 pm)
I have several family members who've retired out of GM (the now defunct Oldsmobile Division in Lansing, MI). All retired as "blue collar UAW workers" in their early 50s with excellent pension and medical benefits. Frankly, I'm very happy for them.
 
However, others who work in the private sector, don't have it so well, especially those who work for small companies or small corporations. White collar workers with years of education beyond high school, with degree upon degree, are extremely lucky to have what UAW workers are getting now in termination allowances or pensions. Many of the folks I know working for small corporations consider themselves blessed to have a job, work 10 to 12 hours a day for a base salary with no overtime, have no company pension program (only a 401k if they're lucky), have minimal medical benefits with rather high co-pays, and hope to retire when they reach 65 or 67! Blue collar workers who work for these same small companies can be even worse off, since they have no organized labor protection.
 
The UAW has represented its membership well which has allowed its membership to attain life style levels it could never attain working in other businesses. The only problem with this premise is that due to their high compensation and benefits, they're bankrupting the companies for which they work.
 
Unfortunately for many UAW workers in this country, the time has come for a serious "reality check."

#3647 of 3659 Rocky - please read this by corsicachevy

Sep 19, 2006 (1:41 pm)

http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/060828fa_fact
 
When I read this story, I was literally jumping up and down at my oncologist's office because someone finally printed what I have been saying for years about old line pension plans. Anyone covered by a pension plan (and that includes you government employees) better pay attention. The house of cards is starting to fall and there's not much anybody can do to stop it.
 
Rocky, I hate to be so harsh, but your grandfather may have to adjust. He'll just have to.

#3648 of 3659 Re: JACK WELCH [rockylee] by stockmanjoe

Sep 19, 2006 (2:02 pm)

Replying to: rockylee (Sep 19, 2006 10:56 am)
The job of a CEO is to maximize shareholder wealth. Because of technological advances, social change etc. it became necessary to streamline operations. He didn't go home every night thinking about how to screw people the next morning. He saved many jobs, in that had he not taken the steps he had GE would be in the same boat our auto industry is in today where everyone is inevitably going to lose their jobs. Granted, it is tough on the people that are canned. In some cases maximizing shareholder means hiring more people depending of the situation presented.
 
Remember you will never get rich "working for the man" you need to be the man.

#3649 of 3659 Re: . [rockylee] by brightness04

Sep 19, 2006 (4:27 pm)

Replying to: rockylee (Sep 19, 2006 11:00 am)
I have and if they can afford to give hundreds of millions in stock options, then they can afford to pay their union obligations.
 
Please read up on what "stock option" is. The actual cash cost of stock option to the company itself is zero! It's to be paid by future investors who care to bid up the stock price. Now if the union is willing to take stock options in trade for all its benefits and retirement packages, I'd have no problem with that at all. The problem with union contract is the complete lack of performance link.
 
I'd figure you'd be upset since you and I would of had to front the bill since the tax payers would of had to pay for it.
 
huh? since when do taxpayers pay for stock options? Tax payers are under no obligation to pay union obligation either.

Messages Page 365 of 366

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