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Hybrids - Long On Mileage, Short On Soul - READ ONLY

100 messages,  Last post on Dec 07, 2010 at 3:50 PM

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What is this discussion about? Hybrid Cars

Messages Page 7 of 10

#61 of 100 Re: Accord Hybrid [gagrice] by robertsmx

Mar 21, 2006 (9:04 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Mar 21, 2006 7:53 am)
Honda probably "adjusted" the EPA estimate for its Hybrid to what people were actually receiving, as opposed to blindly following EPA standards. Or, it could be that Honda went proactive and adopted what could be the new EPA standard next year(?).
 
Regardless, to draw a fair comparison between gas models and the hybrid, I preferred the same source and same year. Mileage on the 2006 Hybrid shouldn't change just because Honda reduced the EPA estimate (28.5 mpg from EPA's website is very close to 29.2 mpg or so being reported at greenhybrid.org, so the number seems consistent, and about what one could expect from the new EPA estimate).

#62 of 100 Re: Accord Hybrid [robertsmx] by gagrice

Mar 21, 2006 (9:12 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Mar 21, 2006 9:04 am)
Or, it could be that Honda went proactive and adopted what could be the new EPA standard next year(?).
 
That is what I am thinking took place. I imagine the actual will now be as good or better than the EPA estimates. If you look at all the Honda cars they seem closer to the EPA estimates than comparable Toyota cars. Again I am only checking 2006 models as that is what are being sold now.

#63 of 100 Re: Accord Hybrid [gagrice] by robertsmx

Mar 21, 2006 (10:31 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Mar 21, 2006 9:12 am)
If you look at all the Honda cars they seem closer to the EPA estimates than comparable Toyota cars.
 
I have noticed that too, in person, and in reviews.

#64 of 100 Re: Accord Hybrid [robertsmx] by stevedebi

Mar 21, 2006 (10:38 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Mar 21, 2006 9:04 am)
"Honda probably "adjusted" the EPA estimate for its Hybrid to what people were actually receiving, as opposed to blindly following EPA standards."
 
Lets hope not, they would be liable for millions of dollars in fines and penalties.

#65 of 100 I never really understood by boaz47

Mar 21, 2006 (10:48 am)

EPA estimates anyway. I used to think it was an average between city and highway mileage but the first time I tried that I realized it was something else all together. I also realized that when I was commuting to LA from Riverside most of my mileage was highway so my reported average mileage would have been higher.
 
When I had my old Saturn SC-1 I would get 39-40 MPG on trips up to the Bay area from OC when taking my Sister up there to visit friends. And that was with three people in the car. No where on the sticker did the SC-1 list 40 MPG.
 
The only Hybrid that has totally impressed me with fuel mileage has been the Insight. Highway mileage on that car is truly impressive. But I am not a city dweller nor do I spend a lot of time driving in a large metropolitan area. I would bet for people living in such large Cities as LA, or NYC would find them useful. But for that they could have jumped on the Electric bandwagon and burned no fuel. Toyota RAV4 electrics would have been a true green machine for city living.
(rant alert)
To get on my soap box for a second that has always been a gripe of mine. The greenies have jumped on the compromise the auto industry offered and allowed the totally non polluting vehicles to fall by the wayside. I know the hybrids beat a sharp stick in the eye but they are "exactly" what the manufacturers offered California when CARB first came up with the idea of non polluting vehicles over 30 years ago. CARB insisted on vehicles that were totally green by 2001 or so and the manufacturers offered hybrids. CARB rejected that idea and 30 years later we have the manufacturers producing hybrids and Toyota, Ford, and GM have stopped offering any electric car. It simply goes to my assertion that CARB is staffed with political appointees that haven't a clue. It would be just as well if the EPA took over and CARB was abolished.
 
(end of rant)

#66 of 100 Re: Accord Hybrid [stevedebi] by robertsmx

Mar 21, 2006 (11:22 am)

Replying to: stevedebi (Mar 21, 2006 10:38 am)
they would be liable for millions of dollars in fines and penalties.
Why would they be?

#67 of 100 Re: Accord Hybrid [robertsmx] by gagrice

Mar 21, 2006 (11:30 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Mar 21, 2006 11:22 am)
According to the EPA only 15% of the cars are tested by the government. The rest are tested by the manufacturer to EPA standards. It would be easy to fudge slightly either direction and still be in the loose parameters set out by the EPA. Honda wants credibility and opted to the lower figures. Toyota?????
 
Ford is also closer to reality on their hybrids than Toyota/Lexus.

#68 of 100 Re: Accord Hybrid [gagrice] by kdhspyder

Mar 21, 2006 (1:02 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Mar 21, 2006 11:30 am)
Explain more precisely please.
 
The EPA tests are clear and published. If anyone wants they can get the testing parameters and drive according to the EPA standards. If you do this you will get EPA figures. I've done it.
 
As a matter of fact I can take any ICE or hybrid and closely replicate the EPA tests and obtain the same or better FE values than what is reported on the stickers.
 
Again using Greenhybrid's data as a measuring stick it confirms nearly all the individual reports and actual comparison tests done.

#69 of 100 Re: Accord Hybrid [kdhspyder] by gagrice

Mar 21, 2006 (1:47 pm)

Replying to: kdhspyder (Mar 21, 2006 1:02 pm)
Explain more precisely please.
 
I wrote to the EPA and their response was that 85% of all models are tested by the manufacturers. Using the parameters published by the EPA. They would not give any information as to which vehicles they actually tested. That leaves room for error. Like maybe that car was slightly better than the average etc etc. According to greenhybrid records of individual cars, the 537 Prius II owners posting averaged 47.5 MPG combined. That is about 14% off of the 55 MPG combined that the EPA estimated or that Toyota estimated using the EPA prescribed tests.
 
We have hashed this all out before. The bottom line is Honda cars in real life get closer to the EPA estimates than Toyota Cars overall. Draw your own conclusions.

#70 of 100 Re: Accord Hybrid [kdhspyder] by robertsmx

Mar 21, 2006 (6:25 pm)

Replying to: kdhspyder (Mar 21, 2006 1:02 pm)
Here is a good measuring stick as to how EPA Estimate (Overall), EPA Observed (Reported) and GreenHybrid.Com (Reported) numbers stack up for various hybrids:
 
Honda Insight CVT
EPA Estimate: 56.0 mpg
EPA Reported: NA
GreenHybrid : 54.0 mpg (-2 mpg/ 96% of the estimate)
 
Honda Civic CVT (2006)
EPA Estimate: 50.0 mpg
EPA Reported: 45.8 mpg (-4.2 mpg/92% of the estimate)
GreenHybrid : 45.7 mpg (-4.3 mpg/91% of the estimate)
 
Honda Accord 5AT (2005)*
EPA Estimate: 32.0 mpg
EPA Reported: 28.5 mpg (-3.5 mpg/89% of the estimate)
GreenHybrid : 29.4 mpg (-2.6 mpg/92% of the estimate)
 
Note: Honda revised the fuel economy estimate for 2006 Accord Hybrid. The new EPA Estimate: 28.0 mpg, which is about what people have reported to EPA (28.5 mpg), and 1.4 mpg less than what people at GreenHybrid have reported.
 
Toyota Prius II
EPA Estimate: 55.0 mpg
EPA Reported: 47.9 mpg (-7.1 mpg/87% of the estimate)
GreenHybrid : 47.5 mpg (-7.5 mpg/86% of the estimate)
 
Toyota Highlander FWD
EPA Estimate: 30.0 mpg (2006)
EPA Reported: 26.0 mpg (-4.0 mpg/87% of the estimate)
GreenHybrid : 23.6 mpg (-6.4 mpg/79% of the estimate)
 
Hondas have delivered closer to the EPA estimate as opposed to the Toyotas.

Messages Page 7 of 10

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