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Hybrids - Long On Mileage, Short On Soul - READ ONLY

100 messages,  Last post on Dec 07, 2010 at 3:50 PM

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What is this discussion about? Hybrid Cars

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#1 of 100 Hybrids: Long On Mileage, Short On Soul by hpmctorque

Dec 04, 2005 (7:47 am)

While I want to keep an open mind about the future, judging from current offerings hybridization has contributed to making cars more appliance-like, with a corresponding reduction in the "soul" factor. Why? the increase in weight and complexity associated with hybrids, coupled with new or, sometimes, nonexisting sounds, detract from the attributes that I value when I think of driving fun.
 
In fairness, I must disclose that I've never driven or even ridden in a hybrid vehicle, so my perception has been shaped entirely by what I've read and heard, and somewhat by the (non- automotive enthusiast) people whom I know who have bought them. I'm somewhat conflicted on the hybrid issue, however, by the fact that hybrids reduce our reliance on foreign sources of energy. In the large scheme of things, that's very desirable, but it also falls outside the scope of this topic, so I'm mentioning it as an aside.
 
Do you agree or disagree that, until now, at least, hybridization is not consistent with driving fun?

#2 of 100 Re: Hybrids: Long On Mileage, Short On Soul [hpmctorque] by andys120

Dec 04, 2005 (10:42 am)

Replying to: hpmctorque (Dec 04, 2005 7:47 am)
Do you agree or disagree that, until now, at least, hybridization is not consistent with driving fun?
 
I'd have to agree given the state of the art. Things may be changing as makers look to hybridization as a means of delivering more power without increasing fuel consumption as is done with the Accord Hybrid and the Lexus RX-400H.
 
A recent article in the NY Times noted that Green activists are complaining about car companies proceeding in this direction.
 
I myself look forward to the car that fulfills the promise of the Honda/Acura DualNote concept car shown at auto shows in 2001-02 with a potential of 400hp 40mpg. Now that I could get excited about.

#3 of 100 hybrid fun by carlisimo

Dec 04, 2005 (3:20 pm)

I think our perceptions are colored because when we think of hybrids, we think of Toyotas. The Prius in particular.
 
I've heard good things about the Insight. The Civic is available with a manual transmission. The Accord might be, and I haven't heard that it's less fun than a V6 Accord (which is 'fun', for that kind of car).
 
Fundamentally, there are two reasons for hybrids not being much fun. The lesser one is electric steering, which as far as I know, is necessary for some technical reason. They're getting better, but the first electric steering systems have been quite numb.
 
The second is that the people who want hybrids tend not to be into driving. For a lot of people I know, having a hybrid would be the only way for them to justify (to themselves) owning a car at all. Mileage-based hybrids have to be marketed to slow drivers anyway.
 
Hybrids can have soul just like a reliable midsized family sedan can have soul. It just isn't what (most) buyers want.

#4 of 100 wellll by nippononly

Dec 04, 2005 (4:46 pm)

just a point of clarification: the last Civic hybrid offered a manual, the new one does not. In general, I would expect to see all hybrids that follow the Toyota school of thought adopting CVTs (or CVT-like devices) for power transmission, and calling it a day. That type of transmission is best for fuel economy in these types of vehicles.
 
Hybrids built to save gas will always go that extra mile by using smaller-than-average tires with low rolling resistance, which always decreases the fun factor.
 
All cars will have electric steering pretty soon except the sporty models (and even some of those), so in a sense the whole market is gradually moving away from fun, except in the exotics.
 
In hybrids, even the high-powered models are just that: high-powered. They are for the most part not engaging or sporty in other ways (I am thinking especially of the Accord hybrid and HL hybrids here), they just happen to be fast if you floor it off the line.
 
Besides, to enthusiasts, how could anything so technically complex ever have "soul"? The soul of the most fun cars on the market is embodied in the amount of raw driving experience that remains for the seat of the pants. Lexus has never understood that so they have never been able to produce a visceral sporty car, and BMW and Mercedes ought to take note here, as they seem to be forgetting that truism bit by bit with every new generation of their cars.

#5 of 100 Re: wellll [nippononly] by carlisimo

Dec 04, 2005 (6:55 pm)

Replying to: nippononly (Dec 04, 2005 4:46 pm)
Thanks for the Civic clarification.
 
I didn't find a whole bunch of 'soul' in my friend's e46 328i, so maybe I'm not an authority on it. But I don't think a hybrid drivetrain is too complex to be soulful. Turbos have similar complexities and quirks, but some of the cars they come in are said to have soul. The Evo and STi have a lot of complexity in their AWD systems... I don't think that detracts from the experience.
 
I won't say the Civic and Accord hybrids are all that much fun, but are they less fun and soulful than normal Civics and Accords with equivalent transmissions? Are engineers even trying to make cars fun to drive, or are they just giving people what they want?

#6 of 100 There's more to driving "fun" than speed and cornering... by larsb

Dec 05, 2005 (7:15 am)

Hybrids have introduced and entirely new kind of "driving fun."
 
The fun of trying to maximize the miles per gallon your car can achieve.
 
The fun of knowing that changing your driving style to a slower style is helping reduce your driving stress.
 
The fun of knowing that you are polluting far far less than virtually any other car on the road.
 
The fun of knowing that your fuel bill for 700 miles of driving will be less than $30.
 
The fun of knowing that your chances of ever getting a speeding ticket have been reduced by about 90%.
 
The fun of knowing that this awesome hybrid technology will be showing up in more and more cars as time goes by.
 
So there is far more "fun" things about driving than the "traditional" view of speed speed speed.

#7 of 100 the hybrids by nippononly

Dec 05, 2005 (8:25 am)

also suffer a loss of soul because they are so intensively computerized - they are not cars, they are transportation appliances run by computer chips. Again, they are not unique in this situation, as all cars are being more and more run by the computer than by the driver.
 
Maybe we should change the title here to "Modern Cars: Long on computers, short on soul".
 
Certainly hybrids have a better computer-driver interface than most cars, as hybrid drivers use their LCD screens to interact with the computer to maximize gas mileage.

#8 of 100 Re: There's more to driving "fun" than speed and cornering... [larsb] by kernick

Dec 05, 2005 (11:02 am)

Replying to: larsb (Dec 05, 2005 7:15 am)
Those things you mention rank right up there on the "fun factor" list with: 1) doing your laundry in a stream to save electric, 2) taking a date to the local crafts-store, and 3) switching TV channels to PBS just to watch their 10-min. membership-drive sessions. You can call them fun, just as you call Alan Greenspan "handsome" - it's all subjective.

#9 of 100 Re: There's more to driving "fun" than speed and cornering... [kernick] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Dec 05, 2005 (1:22 pm)

Replying to: kernick (Dec 05, 2005 11:02 am)
I don't think hybrids are built for people who like cars; they are built for people who like gadgets. Different market.

#10 of 100 Re: There's more to driving "fun" than speed and cornering... [Mr_Shiftrigh by larsb

Dec 05, 2005 (2:26 pm)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Dec 05, 2005 1:22 pm)
HHHMmmmmmmmmmmm....I'm gonna need to ponder that.....
(ponder mode activated)
(pondering engaged)
(ponder)
(ponder)
(ponder)
 
Well, after pondering, I think there are many many "vehicles" which are not built for "people who like cars" but are built to provide a function.
 
Minivans? 15-passenger vans? Huge SUVs? Two-passenger coupes?
 
All those are examples of vehicles built with a particular "job to perform" and they do that job, usually pretty well.
 
Hybrids (at least the high MPG ones) are built for that also. To provide a clean emission, high MPG vehicle to someone who wants or needs such a function provided to them.
 
I feel the cars are more than "mere gadgets." Individuals may love any car they buy, merely because it's their car. Car's don't have to be "universally loved" to be successful.

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