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Automotive News & Views Toyota in decline in 2009?
3864 messages, Last post on Dec 09, 2009 at 11:15 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: corvette (Nov 03, 2009 4:35 pm) that in and of itself, is sub par engineering. to expect someone unfamiliar with the car to figure out how to unlock it at elevated speeds in traffic when the pedal has it held in place is pretty unlikely, also. in my vehicles, i might be able to jam the gas pedal from underneath it with a paver sized brick, but not a floor mat. it was also speculated earlier that mat interfered with the braking, but the mat shows no evidence of any contact with the brakes pedal. it's probably like the game mousetrap. the floor mat installation was the trigger in an unlikely sequence of events. i still would like to know that sequence of events was and how repeatable it is.
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Replying to: 210delray (Nov 03, 2009 7:04 pm)
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Replying to: explorerx4 (Nov 04, 2009 3:51 pm) 1)..Imagine yourself in the position of going down a highway suddenly realizing that you were going very fast. You'd normally let your foot off the pedal and slow down. But what if not only did you not slow down you actually were still gaining speed ( gaspedal trapped in the full forward position by the mat ), then you'd likely put some pressure on the brake pedal to try to slow down. But how much pressure? This is the data that the black box has. 2)..If you put some pressure on the pedal expecting to slow down just as you've done thousands of times previously you'd be very shocked because not only were you not slowing but the trapped pedal was making you go faster ( 90 - 100 mph now? ). 3)..So you put more pressure on the pedal, a lot of pressure. This doesn't work either as the vehicle reaches 100 mph in full WOT. 4)..So now you try jamming the brake pedal to the floor. But the prior efforts at braking and braking strongly have dissapated the power boost from the engine. Now you only have pure mechanical and physical strength...and the vehicle is reaching 120 mph - with no power assist. The Brake Assist feature in all Toyota and Lexus vehicles ( and all other vehicles as well ) works depending on how the driver hits the pedal. In a normal stopping/slowing situation when you press the brake pedal the computer determines that this is a normal stop and puts normal pressure on the brakes. In a panic situation by jamming the foot to the pedal the computer puts the full force of the brakes in play right away. It's the way you hit the pedal. I'm guessing from what I read in the NHTSA report that at the beginning of this tragedy that the driver thought that putting normal pressure would stop the vehicle. Brake Assist was never activated until the engine power boost was dissapated. That's what caused the overheating and loss of braking power. But the black box will have much more info.
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Replying to: explorerx4 (Nov 04, 2009 3:03 pm) This isn't accurate. The mat doesn't slide underneath. It does the opposite. the unsecured mat slides forward and when the pedal is pressed forward the mat edge slides on top of the lower edge of the pedal trapping the pedal all the way forward. to expect someone unfamiliar with the car to figure out how to unlock it at elevated speeds in traffic when the pedal has it held in place is pretty unlikely, also. in my vehicles, i might be able to jam the gas pedal from underneath it with a paver sized brick, but not a floor mat. it was also speculated earlier that mat interfered with the braking, but the mat shows no evidence of any contact with the brakes pedal. it's probably like the game mousetrap. the floor mat installation was the trigger in an unlikely sequence of events. i still would like to know that sequence of events was and how repeatable it is. What you're missing here is that the mat that was in the vehicle was not supposed to be there at all. It was an All Weather mat from a different vehicle and it was stacked on top of the OEM carpetted mat and it was not secured in place to avoid it from sliding forward and the dealers have been specifically warned by Toyota and the NHTSA not to stack mats in this manner. It was a cluster from jump street. \) [.... All Weather Mat blocking the Gas Pedal...] .......{....carpetted OEM mat........................................} If the very thick All Weather mats are not in the vehicle to trap the gas pedal then this tragedy doesn't occur. None of the OEM carpetted mats are thick enough to come anywhere near the gas pedal. In addition none are heavy enough to hold the gas pedal all the way in the forward position. In addition they are secured to the floor by two hooks so that they are nowhere near the gas pedal. How do I know? I've tried to cause such a situation on a wide variety of vehicles using only the OEM carpetted mats.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Nov 04, 2009 4:53 pm) 
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Nov 04, 2009 4:34 pm) |
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Nov 04, 2009 4:34 pm) you really have no clue how brake assist works, you just think you do. i have no clue how it actually works either, but i am now willing say it can't be tricked. the black box is the best hope to determine what was going on
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Replying to: explorerx4 (Nov 04, 2009 7:46 pm) Normal pressure on the pedal in normal situations equals a normal pressure on the brakes. Slamming pressure on the pedal activates the BA function via the ABS system to give you full force right away. If a driver doesn't slam the pedal right away then he/she doesn't get the full stopping force of the BA function. And yes BA probably did not get the right signal in this case as I noted because the driver probably ( my own guess ) thought initially that nothing was really wrong and thus didn't slam on the brakes initially. But this is all speculation and serves no purpose without specific data.
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"Toyota Motor Corp. released misleading information about an investigation into problems with stuck gas pedals that led to a massive Toyota recall, the U.S. government said Wednesday, stressing the issue is still under review by federal safety regulators. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was still investigating the case and meeting with Toyota to hear about the company's plan to redesign the vehicles and fix "this very dangerous problem." U.S. criticizes Toyota statement on floor mats (MSNBC)
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Replying to: steve_ (Nov 04, 2009 11:48 pm) No. Say it's not true. Toyota putting their own spin on something to save their public image? Naaah. Never could happen. |
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