Last post on Aug 12, 2009 at 3:34 PM
You are in the Hyundai Azera
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Ford Five Hundred, Chevrolet Impala, Ford Taurus, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#61 of 863 Re: Have you even DRIVEN a 500? [badgerfan]
Dec 04, 2005 (12:45 pm)
actually glad to hear that you have had some luck with your Tauri, but, reliability stats don't generally support anything 'superior' ever coming from Ford if you are going to consider the Camry, Altima, and/or Accord benchmarks, which I will grant you probably cost 10-15% or so more.
Same comment I made on about the Azera's probable resale also apply to the Taurus and Ford products, in general. A 2003 Camry XLE retails at $16.6K, the SEL Taurus $12.2K. Even with the Taurus being sold at heavier discounts than the Camry initially, still makes more sense to invest in one of the Japanese brands new. Using the Mazda 6 as a base, the new Fusion/Milan is now supposed to compete in this class - but is also hampered by the same 3 liter V6 - while Accords and Altimas run 250 hp, and even the 07 Camry coming with some variant of the Av/IS350 engine. You can defend the 500 power as 'sufficient' all you want, but Ford had better wake up and get with the program - they will take a beating in the market until the point that they have to give away the 500 at 20-30% discounts or more. Hard to make money that way, and largely responsible for Ford's current financial woes. Until Ford can make the otherwise well designed 500 a car with some 'heart'; subjectively, some stand out styling; and perhaps even change the nameplate - this problem should continue.
MT just ran its COY issue, by the way, won by the Civic with apparently a close second to the Azera. The Avalon highly rated but lower - because of higher price. The 500 - didn't even get interviewed, unlike the Impala and Lucerne - both of which at least made the cut.
#62 of 863 Re: back in the day... [explorerx4]
Dec 04, 2005 (4:38 pm)
The SHO, I believe, actually had an engine made by Yamaha - was well ahead of its time but certainly not Ford's technology?
#63 of 863 Re: Have you even DRIVEN a 500? [captain2]
Dec 04, 2005 (4:57 pm)
Wouldn't the 500 been in last year's group?
#64 of 863 Re: Have you even DRIVEN a 500? [captain2]
Dec 04, 2005 (5:12 pm)
"but, reliability stats don't generally support anything 'superior' ever coming from Ford if you are going to consider the Camry, Altima, and/or Accord benchmarks,"
Regardless of the "stats", my own experience says that there simply isn't much difference.
I've owned three Tauri. One of my brothers has owned several Camry's, and the other brother has owned a few Civics.
We've all had basically the same amount of money that was needed to be spent on out of warranty repair work during the same time period (say 15 years).
"Even with the Taurus being sold at heavier discounts than the Camry initially, still makes more sense to invest in one of the Japanese brands new."
Again, I've NEVER seen that to be true. About the best thing you can say is that the residual value of the foreign cars will be higher than the American cars . . . such that your total cost of ownership is roughly the same over the same time period.
#65 of 863 Re: Have you even DRIVEN a 500? [captain2]
Dec 04, 2005 (6:47 pm)
" still makes more sense to invest in one of the Japanese brands new."
I think you meant "buy" rather than "invest." Very few cars ever go up in value. Almost all go down in value. You don't "invest" with the expectation of getting back less after a period of time. You invest in hopes of getting more back over time.
#66 of 863 Re: Have you even DRIVEN a 500? [barnstormer64]
Dec 05, 2005 (6:14 am)
simple math - the 03 Taurus SEL Premium listed at 23950, invoice 21891, the Camry XLE V6 25405/22610. Source:MSN.
Lets logically assume that you bought the Toyota for 23000, a few hundred dollars OVER invoice, the Ford for 20000 even, to allow for rebates that Detroit is now so famous for, and a total of 1891 UNDER invoice - a difference of 3000.00. We still have both cars today - the Camry is now worth 17750.00, the Ford 12280.00 (source kbb.com at 43000 miles and retail) a difference of about 5500.00. The Ford has cost you an additional $2500.00 to own over the 3 years. And this also assummes that repairs, fuel etc. are the same;
if as you contend, that Taurus really is as trouble free as the Toyota - ignoring whatever consumer studies you would like.
Total cost of ownership is obviously not the same.
Back to the subject at hand - what is it about the 500 that would make anyone think that this is going to change? Really think that Ford should be marketing the Fusion and the 500 under a different name - kind of like GM did with Saturn a few years back - except produce a truly competitive car to some higher quality standards to try to avoid these problems they obviously have. In that same COY article I also referenced, the Korean manufacturers were noted to have superior quality than anything from the Big 3 - almost approaching Japanese standards. Tell me why Ford/GM/Chrysler can't do what Hyundai/Kia is apparently capable of doing. If Ford continues on its present path the only people that will profit will likely be from Hertz, and the US taxpayer may be left with a Chrysler style bail out bill.
#67 of 863 Re: Have you even DRIVEN a 500? [captain2]
Dec 05, 2005 (6:55 am)
Run the same numbers 10 years down the road, when both cars are worth very little as used cars. At that point, I still have the $3000 I saved in initial cost, and if I Invest that money, say in something that returns a fairly conservative 5%, at the end of ten years I have $4887. At that point, I doubt if you will find the Camry has held that much of a value advantage.
My point is blanket statements about which vehicle is cheaper to own are highly dependent on the individual situation.
#68 of 863 Re: Have you even DRIVEN a 500? [badgerfan]
Dec 05, 2005 (7:30 am)
very few people actually keep cars that long but point taken - but, what do you think happens to repair costs of the average 10 yr old Taurus vs. the 10 yr old Camry.
#69 of 863 Re: Have you even DRIVEN a 500? [captain2]
Dec 05, 2005 (7:39 am)
Actually, using Edmunds TCO calculator puts the least expensive crown on the Taurus! Using the model choices you made and plugging them into calulator and using Edmund's assumptions (5 year time frame, 15000 miles per year, etc), the Camry will cost you 43 cents per mile to operate over 5 years and the Taurus will run 38 cents per mile over those same 5 years! Edmund's also estimates the depreciation for the Taurus at approx. $6500 over those 5 years and the Camry will take an $8500 hit over that same time. Food for thought!
#70 of 863 Re: Have you even DRIVEN a 500? [badgerfan]
Dec 05, 2005 (7:42 am)
further thought, as long as the depreciation advantage of the Toyota exceeds the $190.00/year investment opportunity cost (1887/10) the Toyota will be the better buy. The gap will certainly narrow as the cars get that old.