Last post on Aug 12, 2009 at 3:34 PM
You are in the Hyundai Azera
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Ford Five Hundred, Chevrolet Impala, Ford Taurus, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#269 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [toddbinfla]
Feb 24, 2006 (5:48 pm)
Regarding those long warranties:
They're long because automakers know the engine and tranny are some of the most reliable parts on the car. A/C commpressors, starter motors, alternators, computers and other electrical parts, etc are the parts that typically go bad after the 3/36 warranty expires.
So, those warranties don't do much good but instill a false sense of security with people who don't realize that their warranty may not be of much use after the bumper-to-bumper term is over - especially for Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans whose engines/trannys easily go 150-200K miles between overhauls. My last Maxima (1996 SE) had 160K miles when I sold it and the engine/tranny ran like new.
I read somewhere that one can upgrade the Azera's 10yr powertrain warranty to a 10yr bumper to bumper warranty for a fee. Now that's something to consider! Will such an upgrade make the Azera better/smother/more refined/etc than the Avalon? No, but it will most certainly make it cheaper to operate. I won't even compare reliability of American cars to the Toyota's long term reliability record.
Anyone really interested in comparing the Av to Azera should read this months car mags - one of them (Motor Trend I think?) has a comparison test between the Av Touring, Azera and Volkswagen Passat. Great article.
That Hyundai has improved from making cruddy unrelaible cars to a well built fairly reliable cars in the last 5-10 years speaks volumes about Hyundai's understanding how important quality and reliability is to our market, and how inept American automakers are at comprehending the same.
Germany needs a lesson in reliability too. Chryslers haven't improved in reliabilty with the infusion of Mercedes juice - they just drive better and have better build quality, but reliability of Daimler Chrysler is still sorely lacking.
If Hyundai continues on its path for another 5-10 years while improving quality and reliability to match the best Japanese automakers, they may earn my dollar in the future. But not yet.
Regards to all,
#270 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [captain2]
Feb 24, 2006 (6:03 pm)
Detroit won't put modern engines into their cars because they're so hung up on the short-term savings of using cheaper-to-produce pushrod engines. As such, they're way behind the learning curve on building potent and desirable overhead cam engines. This is exemplified by V6 Avalons (and soon 07 V6 Camrys) being virtually as quick as a V8 300C, but with insanely higher fuel economy.
What America needs to do is put a freeze on all spending on any car development that does not focus on improving build quality, real reliability, and implementing OHC engines. They should forget spending on styling, updates and even pull back on advertising a bit. This will hurt sales and market share for a year or three (but its happening to the big 3 anyway each year), but they'll emerge with product more likely to be bought by more discerning customers of Japanese branded cars.
I'd love to buy American branded cars, but they just don't measure up. Imagine a 300 C, Ford, etc that had the long-term reliability/build quality of Honda/Toyota - that's a car I'd buy. Until then, America will sell cars based on discounts, superficial styling, and marketing - not true quality and reliability. And if that day does not come soon, the Big three will be comprised of Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
#271 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [deanie]
Feb 24, 2006 (8:53 pm)
Check the weights of the Avalon, Camry and v8 Chrysler 300. Also compare low end torque of the motors and overall gear ratios.
Overhead cam motors are not necessarily better. The U.S. makes the best pushrod v8 motors in the world, and they have been doing exactly that for a long, long time.
But heavy, high horsepower and torque cars usually do burn more gas.
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
If you only need 2 seats, the Corvette, with a pushrod v8, is the best widely available high performance car in the world, and a real bargain too!
#272 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [averigejoe]
Mar 06, 2006 (6:21 am)
averigejoe - have to agree with deanie on this one - while the US mfgrs. do indeed know how to make pushrod engines (largely because that is all they have done since the 50's) the penalty for this ancient technology is efficiency. The GM 3.8 V6 around since the mid 50's started life as a 'Buick 231' and has not changed substantially since - and it has been a good engine in terms of durability and even in terms of economy when combined with some long gearing (circa '95 LeSabre, for example) - but, at 200 hp, 250 ft/lbs. of torque not close to what an Avalon can do power wise although almost as good with fuel. The Ford 3.0, on the other hand, a disaster from day one, and Chrysler's track record (pre MB) just as bad.
The American manufacturers will have to change this displacement as a 'cure' attitude and substitute some real technology if they are to remain competitive. In this $3.00/gallon world combined with cars that now can outperform about anything made in any era, don't think they have a choice. The consumer maybe just a little too smart to be spending their $ on something like a 300C with some rather serious reliability issues, and maybe 16 mpg vs. those same $ spent on things like Avalons/07 Camry, TLs/Accords, G35/Maximas/Altimas etc., all of which (V6s) will come very close to running with the 300C, save maybe 10 mpg, and have a much higher build quality to boot!
#273 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [captain2]
Mar 06, 2006 (1:14 pm)
If you are referring to the Ford "3.0" you could be referring either to the 3.0 Vulcan pushrod or the 3.0 Duratech.
For either engine, you are wrong that they were disasters from day 1. The 3.0 Vulcan, when first introduced in the original Taurus, (1987 model year was it?) was a very state of the art engine. One of the first with multipoint fuel injection and an electronic ignition system on a mass market car. The Japanese at that time were still largely using distributors and super complex carburetors. Yes the 3.0 Vulcan is an obsolete engine now, but is wasn't when introduced.
Same goes for the 3.0 Duratech. When introduced in 1996 it was pretty much state of the art.
With current enhancements of variable valve timing(on Fusion versions) and 6 speed transmission on Fusion or Five Hundred or the CVT transmission option on Five Hundred, the 3.0 Duratech drive train is not really behind the curve compared to much of the competion, expecially when you are talking AFFORDABLE cars.
Neither engine has been a "disaster", and in fact have been quite reliable.
Much of the competition's higher horsepower ratings come at very high rpm's which are rarely actually used in any real world driving situations.
#274 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [badgerfan]
Mar 06, 2006 (1:35 pm)
actually both - both engines pushrod, low output/efficiency, and rough as a cob at any rpm over 4000. And one of the reasons that Ford products have had consistently low ratings. And the reason, that an otherwise intelligently designed car (thank you Volvo), the 500, will never be more than a Hertz rental or fleet car. Read something very recently that Ford is finally discontinuing the engine in favor of a 3.5 at about 250 horse with some of those dreaded overhead cams etc. that may make it competitive to those more powerful and economical engines available from others. If they don't go out of business first....
#275 of 863 Azera backend styling : cross of BMW7 series and older Honda Accord
Mar 06, 2006 (6:50 pm)
My observation on the backend styling of the Azera:
It seems to me every car company now is adapting the BMW's controversial high deck styling (aka. Bangel 's butt after BMW's chief designer Chris Bangel). I am seeing it on the Azera also. In addition, the old and droopy tail light of the older Honda Accord is now on the Azera.
Other than that, Areza is very nice looking and well done vehicle inside out. I have no doubt Hyundai will sell quite a few of Azeras in the months to come. It will give people reasonable alternative to Avalon (still goofy styling), Ford 500 (too conservative) or Buick Lucern
#276 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [captain2]
Mar 07, 2006 (8:35 am)
Now I know you don't know what you are talking about. The 3.0 Duratech is a 24 valve dual overhead cam V-6. It is not a pushrod engine, and as adapted in the Fusion and Mazda 6, it is also a variable valve timing engine. Ford is absolutely not discontinuing the 3.0 Duratech. You are confusing it with the 3.0 Vulcan pushrod V-6, which is basically being discontinued.
#277 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [badgerfan]
Mar 07, 2006 (8:48 am)
Amazing, isn't it? Maybe it's only the hopelessly CONFUSED who buy those foreign jobs and diss the American cars.
The Duratech 3.0L was an amazing engine when it was introduced in the '96 Taurus . . . and it's still a pretty darned good engine today.
Hopefully the new 3.5L will be as reliable and trouble-free.
#278 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [barnstormer64]
Mar 07, 2006 (9:58 am)
Yes, and also check out where Captain2 has also been posting besides this board. Had to take his Avalon back 6 times for an oil leak...........