Last post on Aug 12, 2009 at 3:34 PM
You are in the Hyundai Azera
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Ford Five Hundred, Chevrolet Impala, Ford Taurus, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#234 of 863 Other quality bias notes
Feb 16, 2006 (10:37 am)
check out this web site for recall notices.
Just looking at 06 / 05 and started 04 before giving up and posting the link I found 588,677 toyota vehicles with safety recalls. These were Camry, Avalon, Corolla, Tundra and Tacoma as well as the Lexus ES330.
While the recalls are not nearly as rampant as detroit iron, my point with industry bias, and its effect on the public in general, ignores the fact that there are ever any problems with Toyota (I name them only because I looked them up, check out the listing for the 2003 Odyssey minivan and the transmission problems they had which were also felt by the CL, TL, Accord and Pilot.) These manufacturers enjoy favorable press like Saddam did from his information minister. Its just that when you look in the backround you see the M1 tank sitting on the corner. Tercels and Corolla's were inexpensive tranportation using inexpensive materials to save money and hold costs down. Were they cheap? Hyundai Accent and the last year or two of the Excel were inexpensive transportation using inexpensive materials to save money and hold costs down. Were is the difference? A sub 10k car will be a cheap car. Hyundai does not build Excel's anymore, nor do they build scoop's. I had an excel that except for replacing a clutch at 75,000 miles ran trouble fee for years. I had a tercel whose motor blew up at 82,000 miles, does that mean the excel was a better car? Or does that mean that the person who owned the tercel before me did not take good care of it? Whose to say, but the excel ran to almost 150,000 miles before I sold it. Yes it was cheap and plastic and made in 1987 but back then it was a $6,500 car. Once upon a time Toyota made cheap cars that rotted away rapidly, do they still have that reputation? No. Stop living in the past with all things not Toyota or Honda (early cvcc) or Nissan (B210 anyone) and realize that cars made today are within a percentage point or two of their competitors and judge them fairly and honestly on that standpoint.
Reading these posts reminds me of the death of the Camaro and Firebird. Two cars able to outperform almost anything else on the street, a great value for thier performance, able to be bought as convertables, and except for not being named Civic fantastic cars. Put a stock Si versus a Stock SS and guess which one wins. But hey public perception fueled by the media and entertainment industry said the Civic is the it car. Now to get the same performance out of a Civic you pay 20k for the car and 10k for the engine and another 4 to 8k for the suspension and other modifications and once your done you have a car as fast as a 6 year old camaro or firebird you can find for 8 to 12k. Where o where is the sense?
The insurance industry kills the pontiac fiero, only to not do the same thing to the mr2. Why?
Hyundai builds a car that almost all of the automotive press says is equal to the Avalon, and gives the ES a run for its money in feature content and all anybody has to say is, but hyundais past quality is a joke. Are we afraid to admit that just maybe the vaunted Japanese car companies can be matched by someone?
#235 of 863 Re: Azera holds up well to Avalon and TL But it's really not less expensive [toddbinfla]
Feb 16, 2006 (12:19 pm)
Had the opportunity to do some business with a multiple dealership owner a few years back - had existing Toyota and Nissan dealerships and now was adding a Ford place in the same 'village'. Dealers make money only because of the service and used car depts. New car sales are acutally net money losers if you properly portion overhead, construction and utility costs, and commissions. This gentlemen was excited to finally get the Ford logo - wonder why?
So use the KBB/NADA if you wish, but they certainly mean nothing to that dealer taking it in on trade - he is looking to turn it over at profit margins that would make a jewelry saleman blush and probably for more gross dollars profit than he could make selling the car new! Residual value estimates do, however, provide the basis for lease cost, another number that can be manipulated to satisfy those folks that 'buy' by payment size.
#236 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [toddbinfla]
Feb 16, 2006 (12:49 pm)
The insurance industry kills the pontiac fiero, only to not do the same thing to the mr2. Why?
What really killed the Pontiac Fiero was that it was a piece of junk. I knew a few people that had one and not one of them had the original engine in it. One person I knew had just over 60K miles on his car, but he was on his third engine.
#237 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [snakeweasel]
Feb 16, 2006 (12:55 pm)
I was not aware of that, I had a tennis coach who had one but did not complain of any problems, it was new however. I did know a guy who had a samurai and under the hood is an information sticker that says that the engine is good for only 40,000 miles.
#238 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [toddbinfla]
Feb 16, 2006 (2:19 pm)
History repeats itself.
In 1968 everyone laughed at my Dad when he bought a Toyota and used derogatory terms describing it as "J#p Cr#p". It was rock solid and ran over 100,000 miles without a problem before he bought another one. After a couple of years nobody was laughing.
The point is that Hyundai is now where the Japanese were 25 or 30 years ago. They have a sound product and the people who buy the cars now will enjoy the lower-cost hidden secret until the rest of the community wakes up. In the meantime, Japanese quality has slipped and they are riding on reputation. Toyota is watching Hyundai very closely.
In a few years the Hyundai jokes will be as old as the double-barrel carburetor, and no doubt there will be future emerging competitors on it's tail.
#239 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [alan_s]
Feb 16, 2006 (9:36 pm)
I am sold on Hyundai quality and reliability. My friend just hit 100K miles on his 2002 Sonata LX and has had only one minor problem. I was sitting next to a new Lexus LS430 the other day and noticed most of the trim around the windows and body side moldings did not line up and thought this is the opitamy of HIGH quality????? Everything on my Azera and XG lines up perfectly. As for Toyota, my sister has had major trans problems with both her Tundra and 4 Runner.
#240 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [tinydog1]
Feb 17, 2006 (5:18 am)
Killing some time last night I wanted to give the Avalon owners a fair shake. The posts on here from those owners convey a high regard for the quality of the car they drive. And admittedly the current recall for the Avalon is for a really insignificant item.
So I checked out the complaints section: It appears there is an issue with the computer control of the transmission. There are multiple complaints about the same issue on the NTSB site, some pleading with the NTSB to get involved. Dealers are at a loss on how to repair the issue because mechanically the transmissions are fine. They appear to have shift problems, lack of gear change, sudden gear change, hunting for gears, delayed engagement of gears pulling away from a stop. Fortunately no one has been injured, and I am sure that Toyota will do everything they can to repair these cars as quickly as possible.
On another note. Regarding owner surveys. People like to tout the survey, especially the CR survey's as a true indicator of car quality. But are they really. In my experience I have found that (I'll be politically correct) people who are chronologically challanged, tend to not respond to the suveys they receive. Also, and again this is just in my experience not a blanket claim for all, do not want to be negative about things. My mother in law is not afraid to speak her mind. She had a Buick Le Sabre that was about 3 years old and had only 16,000 miles. The AC went out. Did she complain? No, when I asked her about it, her attitude was: 'well it wasn't their fault, and they said it would be fixed under warranty'. Would she report this on a survey, no. She was happy with the service manager, they treated her well, and she bought another Buick.
Most of her friends are the same way. I doubt the median age of an Avalon buyer is much different from the median age of a Le Sabre buyer. These individuals are less likely to have a negative comment, unless an incident happened in the very recent past (a week or so). If the problem was fixed, it is no longer an issue.
Does CR report how many people respond and what their ages are? Do any of the magazines or survey companies? I would be curious to see how the percentages stacked up.
Even this site has a lot of people complaining about the Avalon shift issue.
Don't ever forget that perception is reality, people still love Bill Clinton even though he is a filanderer, adulterer and a liar. But hey, he smiled and played the sax, so he must be ok.
Toyota, Honda, Acura, Lexus, Nissan, and of course Mitsubishi have mechanical issues, fit and finish issues and recalls, just like everyone else. But hey, thier from Japan so it must be ok.
#241 of 863 Toyota's fix for the Avalon shift issue
Feb 17, 2006 (11:46 am)
is the new 6A. Unfortunately, I feel that current purchasees will be out of luck. That said, I didn't notice a downshift issue in the Avalon to be more present than in our 05 Legacy, also with electronic throttle control, which I believe causes the problem in Toyota's 5A.
Regarding the 6A that tha Avalon should be receiving for the 07 MY... Toyota's press release (of the New Camry) states:
"Harnessing this engine's output is an all-new six-speed automatic transmission that uses 21 percent fewer parts than the conventional five-speed automatic transmission it replaces. This new transmission, which can be shifted sequentially, relies upon a newly developed gear train that uses a Ravigneaux-type compound planetary gear for reduced size, weight and friction.
This new transmission also uses a quick-response, low-friction clutch pack for enhanced fuel economy; an ultra-flat, low-inertia torque converter for high transmission efficiency; a set of high-response, low-slip clutch packs and new electronic and hydraulic control systems that incorporate an intelligent shift control that learns driver's driving style and selects gears based on that style.
As a result of this development, transmission kickdown response was cut to 0.5 seconds, more than twice as fast as the response of the transmission this new one replaces."
So, apparently the 6A will offer kickdowns twice as fast as the (in my opinion) dumpy, but not unsafe, 5A.
#242 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [tinydog1]
Feb 17, 2006 (12:10 pm)
I was sitting next to a new Lexus LS430 the other day and noticed most of the trim around the windows and body side moldings did not line up and thought this is the opitamy of HIGH quality?????
Did you know the amount of crash damage the Lexus had sustained?
Either that, or you are overdue for a visit to your opthalmologist.
It's one thing to compare an Azera to an Avalon, and quite another to an LS 430.
#243 of 863 Re: Other quality bias notes [toddbinfla]
Feb 17, 2006 (2:30 pm)
Don't think that too many people would argue that as we age we tend to become less tolerant - not more as you suggest. Furthermore, the older you are the more financially able you will generally be - making that person perhaps even a little more 'disagreeable' - money does have a way of making a person used to getting his/her own way. Think you supposition is all wrong, except that it logical that the older we get the less likely we might be to fill out silly surveys - except possibly for those that are actually retired and may have little else to do.
An industry bias for Japanese cars! Don't you think that CR or any other automotive publication/surveyor in this country would just love to be able to say 'go out and buy the 500 - it is a wonderful car backed by Ford and its history of building superior cars is second to none..." Of course, they would - just that they can't! Say that about Toyota and Honda certainly, Nissan is close, and indeed Hyundai may be paying a high price for past problems - we just won't know if this will change for awhile.