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Coupes & Convertibles Pontiac Solstice Pontiac Solstice vs 2006 Mazda MX-5 Miata
376 messages, Last post on Jan 17, 2008 at 3:20 PM
You are in the Pontiac Solstice Forum. Your Host is claires
your wasting your breath...some folks just don't let facts get in the way of their argument....To try and compare the Miata track record to anything pontiac has built in the past 15 years is a bit laughable....perhaps in the next 10-15 years the Solstice will break the Miata sales records and maintain a great track record of reliability and good resale values...This would be great for GM, they sure need the help...but, if Pontiac's track record in the past 15 years is any indication of quality, resale values and sales nobody is going to remember Pontiac after the novelty of the Solstice wears off...
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Replying to: audia8q (Jan 31, 2006 2:38 pm) Respectfully, read my posts. I never tried to compare Mazda and Pontiac over the last 15 years. If you read my posts you will see where I say over and over again that the Solstice is a new product. My point being it is not much of an argument for a Miata backer to state that glaringly obvious fact. It would be like saying do not compare LeBron James to Jordan because Jordan had 18 years and LeBron only 3. Well, no duh! So in other words no debate for 18 years? You and avi both seem unable to address the point and prefer to say I am arguing something I am not. Which suggests to me, in any event, that you do not have all that much to say about the MX-5. Seems to me, we should be talking about the here and now. And the here and now, as best I can tell, is 2,746 December sales to 1,007, a slew of positive press for both cars, numbers that are close, but show strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Not what Pontiac or Mazda was doing back in the days that they were not even in competition with one another. |
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Replying to: logic1 (Jan 31, 2006 12:24 pm) "If Mazda did not need it before, why does Mazda need it now?" Um, they DON'T need it now. That's why Mazda has moved on from the Mazdaspeed Miata and is currently building the Mazdaspeed version of the 6. Next up will be a Mazdaspeed version of the 3. Besides, couldn't the same question be asked of Pontiac with regards to the GXP version of the Solstice? Pontiac is obviously selling each and every version of the Solstice they can possibly produce. Many folks in this forum are constantly crowing about some perceived performance advantage the current Solstice has over the Miata. Besides, you missed the whole point of what was being discussed in regards to Mazdaspeed. Mazdaspeed (like TRD with Toyota) has been selling aftermarket performance products for YEARS for a variety of Mazda vehicles. A few years ago, Mazda started offering Mazdaspeed performance packages on select cars. I believe they started with a Mazdaspeed version of the Protege. There WAS no 'need' to do a Mazdaspeed version; they just do a different car each year to try and build awareness of the program. If they felt there was a 'need' to do a Mazdaspeed Miata, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE STOPPED building them. And your lack of knowledge regarding the tuning industry and Mazdas is astounding. Tuning rotaries is easier than piston engines since you don't have any valvetrain to mess with. Otherwise, you do the same things (intakes/exhaust/ECM mods). Besides, Mazdas are modded LOTS of ways besides just the engine (like the suspension, brakes, etc.)
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Replying to: rorr (Jan 31, 2006 3:15 pm) I believe you will see a MazdaSpeed MX-5 awfully soon. The new MX-5 only boosting sales by 400 cars nationwide does not bode well for dropping the MazdaSpeed option. Besides, couldn't the same question be asked of Pontiac with regards to the GXP version of the Solstice? Pontiac is obviously selling each and every version of the Solstice they can possibly produce. Many folks in this forum are constantly crowing about some perceived performance advantage the current Solstice has over the Miata Read my post again. I did not use the MazdaSpeed example as saying there was a problem with Mazda. Rather, I was saying the fact GM already is coming out with a GX-P (the parts for which are made by many of the same companies which will sell after market components) shows GM has very quickly gotten with the game. (Why does the Miata crowd insist on distorting arguments  ) Besides, you missed the whole point of what was being discussed in regards to Mazdaspeed. Mazdaspeed (like TRD with Toyota) has been selling aftermarket performance products for YEARS for a variety of Mazda vehicles. A few years ago, Mazda started offering Mazdaspeed performance packages on select cars. I believe they started with a Mazdaspeed version of the Protege. There WAS no 'need' to do a Mazdaspeed version; they just do a different car each year to try and build awareness of the program. If they felt there was a 'need' to do a Mazdaspeed Miata, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE STOPPED building them. Did not miss the point at all. In fact, as I said above, my whole point on GX-P/MazdaSpeed is to show GM has very quickly got on board with the program. Arguably, you miss part of the point where you suggest MazdaSpeed is only for marketing. Again, the parts used in manufacturer tuner programs are usually made by the same companies that sell in the aftermarket. Manufacturer programs insure the manufacturer and aftermarked engineers are together and working toward the common cause of maximum performance. And your lack of knowledge regarding the tuning industry and Mazdas is astounding. Tuning rotaries is easier than piston engines since you don't have any valvetrain to mess with. Otherwise, you do the same things (intakes/exhaust/ECM mods). Another total misread of my posts. Modding a rotary may be easier if you know a rotary. But most tuners go from one piston engine to another. Pistons become their skill set. Moroever, with more product and more competition for pistons, price and availability of parts are less. It is not uncommon for tuners to take pieces from one model engine, make some modifications, and use it on another car they are tuning. You could not do the same with pieces for a rotary, unless you had another rotary to begin with. There is nothing to suggest rotary engine tuners make up anything but a very small segment of the market. I will concede the fact RXs themselves sell in limited numbers and at high price have a lot to do with the lack of tuned rotarys as well. But if the RXs were popular with tuners, one would think they would sell better in the first place. Besides, Mazdas are modded LOTS of ways besides just the engine (like the suspension, brakes, etc.) Yeah. As are all modded cars. Where did I say this was not the case?
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Replying to: rorr (Jan 31, 2006 3:15 pm) Back home and with my book marks. Which show, as I thought, you may want to direct some of your astonishment inward. I have links here to multiple tuners sites which all discuss the Mazda rotary engines' propensity to overheat. In several of the articles, the experts suggest the more bullet proof Supra straight 6 and Honda 4's are the better bet, as they tolerate mistakes and exuberance better. |
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Replying to: audia8q (Jan 31, 2006 2:38 pm) It's funny, I use these forums to give knowledge to less knowledgeable, as well as learn about a product I don't have much knowledge with. Many people here do not know about Mazda, as a company, their engineering, or their racing heritage. I know you do, audi8q, I have seen you in other forums, you are a knowledgeable Mazda person. I do hope, for GM's sake, that the Solstice IS successful, they need it to be. I just see the car as a short lived pipe dream. I'm sure every Solstice owner is very happy with their purchase right now, and I hope they do enjoy the car. For me, it's very hard to have any faith what so ever in Pontiac, for their track record is horrendous. Loc said something to the affect that the GM ecotec has been a good engine. I really think that has yet to be seen. I don't see how GM goes from making unreliable engines, to all of a sudden, making a reliable one over night. As in terms of year to date sales on the Solstice and the MX-5. The first year of the product sales does not mean much. It's about the long haul, and constant sales. But, this is not true for GM. They need the sales, right now. I also think it's safe to say that Mazda is not all that much worried about the future of the MX-5. If sales do not match the Solstice in the U.S. right now, that's ok. You have to remember, the MX-5 is a GLOBAL car. It sells in Europe, Africa, Asia. I think a more accurate sales comparo would be world sales of the Solstice Vs. the world sales of the MX-5.
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I just read from Mazda's sales report that Mazda sold 18,931 MX-5's in Europe in 2005 and 9,801 in North America. Now, logic, if these are what you call "declining sales", I cant wait to see what they will be for '06 since they are on the rise, globally. Even though these numbers are not staggering, keep in mind that this is a roadster. It's usually a weekend toy for most, not a daily driver.
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Feb 01, 2006 9:01 am) In the interest of giving and sharing knowledge, I have owned two Miatas over a period of seven years. I know the history. Loc said something to the affect that the GM ecotec has been a good engine. I really think that has yet to be seen. I don't see how GM goes from making unreliable engines, to all of a sudden, making a reliable one over night. In the interset of giving and sharing knowledge, the ecotec engine has been used in Europe and other nations for more than 10 years. The 2.4 in the Solstice is already being used by Saab and Opel. As in terms of year to date sales on the Solstice and the MX-5. The first year of the product sales does not mean much. It's about the long haul, and constant sales. But, this is not true for GM. They need the sales, right now. I also think it's safe to say that Mazda is not all that much worried about the future of the MX-5. If sales do not match the Solstice in the U.S. right now, that's ok. You have to remember, the MX-5 is a GLOBAL car. It sells in Europe, Africa, Asia. I think a more accurate sales comparo would be world sales of the Solstice Vs. the world sales of the MX-5. Pontiac is a US brand. The Solstice will not be offered abroad. Kappa cars will, however. Opel will sell a form of the Saturn Sky. Holden is working at least one and possibly three Kappa platform vehicles.
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Feb 01, 2006 9:17 am) My post referred specifically to North American sales. Consistent with your earlier posts, you continue to misquote me. The NB (or second generation Miata - a real knowledgeable Miata person should know what I mean when I say NB above) - did see declining sales from 1999 through 2005. As I said above, NA MX-5 sales*were up by some 600 models in December 2005 over December 2004. But the MX-5 still sold almost 2k less in North America than the MX-5. If you want to debate with me, I respectfully ask you not misstate my clearly articulated points. * In light of Rorr's comments below, please be advised that NA here stands for North American. Obvious context apparently being insufficient for some.
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Replying to: logic1 (Feb 01, 2006 9:28 am) If you want to debate with me, I respectfully ask you not misstate my clearly articulated points." Clearly articulated? First, I didn't think Mazda had sold any NA Miatas since the '98 year. Didn't they start selling the NB edition in '99?  Second, shouldn't that last sentence have read "But the MX-5 still sold almost 2k less in North America than the Solstice". |
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