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Coupes & Convertibles Pontiac Solstice Pontiac Solstice vs 2006 Mazda MX-5 Miata
376 messages, Last post on Jan 17, 2008 at 3:20 PM
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Replying to: cargeek1 (Jan 31, 2006 11:40 am) I imagine people were tuning Pontiacs in the 1940s and 1950s, before there even was a Mazda on these shores. |
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Jan 31, 2006 12:15 pm) Pontiac's history has nothing to do with the Kappa platform or the ecotec engine. This next statement show how much you don't know about Mazda. Mazdaspeed has had race products in the Mazda MX-5 for quite some time, on the race track. There was no need for a Mazdaspeed MX-5 before 2004. Mazda has had the market cornered in this segment for 15 years. They gave the MX-5 the Mazdaspeed treatment to add performance, as well as test the market for a more performance driven vehicle in that segment If Mazda did not need it before, why does Mazda need it now? Now, GM is doing the GXP to try and build sales, as well as reputation. Mazda does not need to build anything. As I've stated before, the MX-5 is a PROVEN vehicle in it's segment. I would like to see evidence to dispute that. Do you have any? Again, it is a weak argument. Yes. The Solstice is a new car. If the best you can say about the Miata is the obvious statement that it has been around longer, you are not saying much. Are you even aware that Mazda is the ONLY Japanese manufacturer to win at the 24 hr LeMans? And they did it with a Rotary!! My definition of tuning is amateurs doing something in their garage. Not pro-race teams. Have you ever heard of the RX-7? One of the most popular, and saught out Jap. cars of the last 25 years! Now, Mazda has the RX-8. IT may not have the reputation of the RX-7, but, when they are purchased, many of them are tuned, and some are raced. In straight form, the RXs were somewhat popular. Maybe it is me, but they never seemed to be that big on the tuning market. The rotary engine has some very loyal fans. Otherwise it is pretty much despised. You can't possilby give credit to a kid tuning a Pontiac Sunfire, or Sunbird. So, if you are going to make that arguement, please bring something more then what you said Do not appreciate your putting words in my mouth. Another form of weak argument. I have never once made a positive comment about the performance dynamic of front wheel drive cars.
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Replying to: logic1 (Jan 31, 2006 12:24 pm) If Mazda did not need it before, why does Mazda need it now? I never said they needed it. Stop putting words in MY mouth. Since cars are always evolving, for manufacturers to stay competitive, they must evolve as well. All I see is evolution from Mazda. They know what they need to do to stay the leader of the segment of which they themselves resurrected. How is my statement of PROVEN success and PROVEN reliability weak? OR how about proven on the race track? I don't understand how that is weak? My definition of tuning is amateurs doing something in their garage. Not pro-race teams You said no one tunes Mazda's except for Miata's. You were wrong. In straight form, the RXs were somewhat popular. Maybe it is me, but they never seemed to be that big on the tuning market. The rotary engine has some very loyal fans. Otherwise it is pretty much despised. My best friend has a tuned 1994 RX-7, which he did in his garage, not professional. It has over 400hp. Maybe one reason you don't hear a whole lot about them is because there are not too many affordable and available. They are not like a Mustang, or a Camaro, which are everywhere and inexpensive. Plus, the rotary engine DOES scare people because they don't know how to work on it. Do not appreciate your putting words in my mouth. Another form of weak argument. I have never once made a positive comment about the performance dynamic of front wheel drive cars. I never put words in your mouth. I was stating that you can't argue that Pontiac has more "tuner" cars by stating the only tuned car is the Miata. I was giving my example of how it can be reversed on Pontiac. There are currently more "tuned" current production Mazda's then current production Pontiac's. From what I've seen and read. If I am wrong, then I wont have a problem being corrected. |
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Jan 31, 2006 1:05 pm) Well, now you taking words out of my mouth. I said they needed it. Mazda would not have spent all the money it did on the Mazdaspeed Miata if it was not losing sales and noticing the competition. How is my statement of PROVEN success and PROVEN reliability weak? OR how about proven on the race track? I don't understand how that is weak? Again, you are taking an obvious: the Kappa car is new - and saying that is an issue. Of course the Kappa car is new. GM certainly has many years of racing history to its credit. The Kappa platform itself has obvious similarities to the Vette platform. Clearly GM race engineers were involved. You said no one tunes Mazda's except for Miata's. You were wrong. I was using editorial license. There may be some Mazda tuning outside of the Miata. Not a whole lot. My best friend has a tuned 1994 RX-7, which he did in his garage, not professional. It has over 400hp. Maybe one reason you don't hear a whole lot about them is because there are not too many affordable and available. They are not like a Mustang, or a Camaro, which are everywhere and inexpensive. Plus, the rotary engine DOES scare people because they don't know how to work on it. Exactly. The Rotary engines are expensive to tune and maintain. A very small subset of tuners go rotary. An underlying principle behind tuning is that you do not have to be rich or a genius to tune. The rotary does not conform all that well. I never put words in your mouth. I was stating that you can't argue that Pontiac has more "tuner" cars by stating the only tuned car is the Miata. I was giving my example of how it can be reversed on Pontiac. There are currently more "tuned" current production Mazda's then current production Pontiac's. My comment that started this debate specifically concerned the passion the Solstice engendered in people. Not the Grand Am. Not the G6. Not even the GTO. But the Solstice. And the facts are that the Solstice is engendering passion. There are waiting lists to buy the cars. There are multiple Solstice forums already. (Indeed, to use a tactic from your playbook, it took several years before web sites were devoted to the Miata after its launch.) There are already tuner Solstice products available. And the Solstice will have a GXP varient in the Fall. That spells passion to me. The Miata on the other hand has declining sales. We shall see how the NC does. The NB ration is not nearly so popular as the NA was. If you look at the Miata tuner forums, you will note that a healthy number of the loyal are loyal to NA ation only
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Replying to: logic1 (Jan 31, 2006 12:24 pm) You stated that in an earlier post. You also said that the MX-5 is "Blah". You are entitled to your opinion, which I do not have a problem with. Every reputable car periodical has stated after driving both head to head, the MX-5 is better. There was one, C&D i think, that said the Solstice was better, but, 2 months later, in a follow up article, they recanted on that and said the MX-5 was better, for the Solstice started to rattle, and did not drive as well once it had miles on it. I'm not trying to bash the Solstice. But, it seems GM put this car together a little too fast. It's a "GM parts bin" car. Tranny from the Chevy Colorado (a pick-up I mind you) Fog lights from the Grand AM and HVAC from a Hummer. I must say, I am surprised that GM actually used modern technology in the new GXP. Direct Injection, turbo...very pleased to see that. But, will it hold up? The ecotec is known for rattles, unnessesary valve noise. We will have to wait and see. |
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Replying to: logic1 (Jan 31, 2006 1:22 pm) What competition was there in 2004 for the Miata? S2000 too much money, and really a competitor to the RX-8. VW Beetle? please....BMW Z4? that is a lux car...Miata is not. One thing about these Miata's is that people don't get rid of them. They keep on running, so, people are not getting a new one every 4 years. I'm willing to bet anything that the Solstice will fade, and fail at the attempt to dethrone the MX-5. Also, if anything, the Solstice has sparked more interest in the MX-5. By creating an American roadster, it forces ones who have never looked at a Miata before to start looking. The new MX-5 sales have been overwhelming. I can say this with proof in hand.
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Jan 31, 2006 1:28 pm) The ecotec in the Solstice is used in many other GM cars. There is a large market for ecotec tuning products. Frame tuning products will have to build with Kappa sales. GM plans to make several cars off the Kappa platform, meaing there should be enough demand to encourage many aftermarket suppliers to jump in the fray. There was one, C&D i think, that said the Solstice was better, but, 2 months later, in a follow up article, they recanted on that and said the MX-5 was better, for the Solstice started to rattle, and did not drive as well once it had miles on it. I've read the articles. I do not recall C&D saying anything about having a long term Solstice. Tranny from the Chevy Colorado (a pick-up I mind you) An Aisin transimission -- same company that makes the MX-5 Miata transmision. Fog lights from the Grand AM and HVAC from a Hummer. Uncertain how either of these are a problem. The ecotec is known for rattles, unnessesary valve noise. We will have to wait and see. Ecotec has been a good engine for GM around the world and popular with tuners. |
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Jan 31, 2006 1:48 pm) While I would not include the Beetle in this mix at all, truth is that NB Miata sales declined every year after the up market cars you mentioned along with several others came on the market. Now that the low mortgage interest re-fi people are going off market, you might see a little more discipline in discretionary spending. There was a while there that people who might not even realistically be able to afford a Miata were buying S2000s, Z4s and Boxters. Also, if anything, the Solstice has sparked more interest in the MX-5. By creating an American roadster, it forces ones who have never looked at a Miata before to start looking. The new MX-5 sales have been overwhelming. I can say this with proof in hand. According to Autosite, 12/2005 MX-5 sales were 1,007 compared to 12/2004 sales at 683. Solstice 12/2005 sales were 2,746. So MX-5 saw a modest boost of 400 cars over the prior year with a totally redone model. But it still came up 1,739 shy of Solstice sales. With the more up market Saturn Sky (and its 100% better dealer experience than either Pontiac or Mazda), in my opinion, MX-5 will see even fewer, not more sales. |
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your wasting your breath...some folks just don't let facts get in the way of their argument....To try and compare the Miata track record to anything pontiac has built in the past 15 years is a bit laughable....perhaps in the next 10-15 years the Solstice will break the Miata sales records and maintain a great track record of reliability and good resale values...This would be great for GM, they sure need the help...but, if Pontiac's track record in the past 15 years is any indication of quality, resale values and sales nobody is going to remember Pontiac after the novelty of the Solstice wears off...
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Replying to: audia8q (Jan 31, 2006 2:38 pm) Respectfully, read my posts. I never tried to compare Mazda and Pontiac over the last 15 years. If you read my posts you will see where I say over and over again that the Solstice is a new product. My point being it is not much of an argument for a Miata backer to state that glaringly obvious fact. It would be like saying do not compare LeBron James to Jordan because Jordan had 18 years and LeBron only 3. Well, no duh! So in other words no debate for 18 years? You and avi both seem unable to address the point and prefer to say I am arguing something I am not. Which suggests to me, in any event, that you do not have all that much to say about the MX-5. Seems to me, we should be talking about the here and now. And the here and now, as best I can tell, is 2,746 December sales to 1,007, a slew of positive press for both cars, numbers that are close, but show strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Not what Pontiac or Mazda was doing back in the days that they were not even in competition with one another. |
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