Last post on Dec 23, 2009 at 7:35 PM
You are in the Toyota Camry
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Prius, Toyota Camry, Sedan
#38 of 47 Re: Prius Vs Camry [mcdawgg]
Dec 20, 2009 (5:55 pm)
I can tell you one thing. My family currently owns a 98 Camry and I used to own a 97 Camry CE. I sold my 97 Camry back in 2000, but mine ALSO had fit and finish and quality issues. My family still owns the 98 Camry and it too has fit and finish issues and rattles and it only has 54,000 original miles on it. Both of these vehicles were built here in the USA in Kentucky. Before my family owned the 98 Camry, they owned a 1982 Toyota Celica that was purchased brand new which was 100% built in Japan. The 100% Japanese built 1982 Celica was an excellent car. We never had any fit and finish or any quality problems with the Celica during the entire 16 years that we owned it. It had over 170,000+ miles before we gave it away to another member of our family. They owned it and drove it for another 2 years until it was 19 years old and they traded it in for another vehicle. When they traded it in the 1982 Celica was still driveable and it had over 180,000+ miles on it. The only thing wrong with the car was that it had rust on the lower panels and on the floor boards from all the salt and from the 19 winters that it went thru up here in the northeast. Other than that, everything on the vehicle was working and the car was running like brand new.
But on the other hand, the 1998 Camry that my family still drives and owns has all sorts of rattling and fit and finish issues that the 1982 Celica didn't have. Can you tell me WHY that is so?
WHY didn't the 1982 Celica have any fit and finish and quality issues during the entire 19 years of ownership? And WHY does the 1998 Camry have fit and finish and quality issues? And WHY did my 1997 Camry also have fit and finish and quality issues too? Is it because maybe when they were built here in the USA in Kentucky that the manufacturing process or the materials were not up to par like the materials and like the manufacturing process that they use in Japan for the same exact same vehicles? There HAS to be a legitimate reason WHY this occurs. There is NO WAY that American built Toyotas are better or equal quality as the Toyotas that are 100% built in Japan. That's an big overstatement. American built Toyotas are not as well built and are not as good quality as the ones that are built 100% in Japan. There is something that is NOT done here with the American built Toyota vehicles that are done with the ones that are built 100% in Japan. What it is I don't know? I am hoping that someone can chime in on this issue. What is the difference between a 100% Japanese built Toyota and a 100% American built Toyota? If we can find this out then we will also find out WHY the American built Toyota vehicles lack the quality that the Japanese built ones have. Maybe someone in here knows the answer to this.
#39 of 47 Re: Prius Vs Camry [gtgtcobra]
Dec 20, 2009 (6:18 pm)
Why? I've said it is design. You cannot blame everything on assembly of the car or build of the parts, no matter where it was done. If the engineering is done very well, you will not have (as many or no) problems. Sorry, my experience in manufacturing (not auto, but still design and assembly of other things) plus my experience with Toyotas both say that USA LABOR DOES build good cars, or widgets, etc. Toyota uses the same specs, materials, and processes as they do in Japan to build cars here, or anywhere. Why would they do different? They don't, it is the same. If they were different, costs would be different (ie more expensive to have different part specs, different designs, etc) There are a very few differences, but in general they are the same car, no matter where built. Right now, it is much more expensive to import from Japan vs. build in the USA due to the currency. If anything, they would want to cut costs for Japan built (but they don't). It's all in the engineering.
The rattles in the early 2007 Camrys? Guess what, most of the TSBs that came out are for BOTH Japan built AND USA built Camrys - DESIGN. For example, the dash rattle.
#40 of 47 Re: Prius Vs Camry [mcdawgg]
Dec 20, 2009 (6:34 pm)
Okay, I do agree with you somewhat about the design flaws causing quality issues. Let me ask you another question regarding design then:
If the Camry that is built 100% in Japan and is designed 100% the same way as the 100% American built Camry, then HOW can the Japan built Camry be better quality than the American built Camry? Remember that the design is exactly the same for BOTH the 100% American built Camry and ALSO for the 100% Japanese built Camry. If both cars have the same exact design, WHY does the American built Camry have fit and finish and quality issues when the Japanese built Camry doesn't? That's what we need to find out here. Do you know the answer to this?
#41 of 47 Re: Prius Vs Camry [gtgtcobra]
Dec 21, 2009 (5:21 am)
"If the Camry that is built 100% in Japan and is designed 100% the same way as the 100% American built Camry, then HOW can the Japan built Camry be better quality than the American built Camry?"
How about volume? How many camry's to they push out the door everyday? I think Toyota is having the same issue as GM has had for years. They are too big to manage. Just think of some of the problems they could be having like parts that are good but not great from there suppliers. Do they shut down the whole line until they get good parts in or do they RUN. This might be the difference in the 2 countries because I would bet in the USA the answer is RUN because the boss wants his bonus for cars out the door.
#42 of 47 Re: Prius Vs Camry [gtgtcobra]
Dec 21, 2009 (9:37 am)
Where are you seeing that Japan built Camrys do not have fit and finish issues? Also, Japan built Camrys are RARE, not a good sampling. Some of the rattle TSBs for early 2007-2008 Camrys are for both USA and Japan built, meaning it is design. And what fit and finish issues do are you talking about for the USA built Camry? I have two - a 2007 and a 2010. NO problems with fit/finish (if fit/finish is defined as factory assembly issues).
#43 of 47 Re: Prius Vs Camry [mcdawgg]
Dec 21, 2009 (10:42 am)
"How about volume? How many camry's to they push out the door everyday? I think Toyota is having the same issue as GM has had for years. They are too big to manage. Just think of some of the problems they could be having like parts that are good but not great from there suppliers. Do they shut down the whole line until they get good parts in or do they RUN. This might be the difference in the 2 countries because I would bet in the USA the answer is RUN because the boss wants his bonus for cars out the door."
Back in the "good old days" during the mid and late 1970's and early 1980's Toyota still had a huge production volume when they were still manufacturing their vehicles in Japan, but their cars were still top notch vehicles and they were flawless without any quality issues. I used to own a 1982 Toyota Celica GT and a 1985 Honda Civic Hatchback S and BOTH vehicles were flawless vehicles that were built 100% in Japan. I also knew many others who owned Toyotas and Hondas back then that were manufactured in Japan and all of their vehicles were flawless too.
I understand what you are saying about the quality going down when volume goes up, but that didn't happen during the mid and late 1970's and early 1980's when 100% of the Toyota vehicles were still being built in Japan. The very high production volume that Toyota had back then in those good old days didn't cause the vehicle quality to go down.
High production volume shouldn't be an excuse to building lower quality vehicles. That excuse ONLY occurs here in the USA because auto production workers and management do NOT care about building a car the "right way" with the highest quality like the Japanese do in Japan. It's proven that Toyota built excellent quality vehicles in Japan during the mid and late 1970's and during the early 1980's even when they had a very high production volume when they were still manufacturing all of their vehicles in Japan. If the sameuto manufacturing plant that's currently in the USA today was to be placed in Japan with Japanese workers all the cars would be built the right way and they would be flawless. Let's face it, American workers don't pay attention to l the detail during the assembly and manufacturing process when they build an automobile. They would rather sit on their fat asses and avoid being picky about manufacturing details and fit and finish and quality issues. But the Japanese in Japan take the time to correct and fix these issues before the vehicle leaves the factory. That's why Japanese built cars are much better than the American built Japanese cars.
#44 of 47 Re: Prius Vs Camry [mcdawgg]
Dec 21, 2009 (2:32 pm)
#45 of 47 Re: Prius Vs Camry [gtgtcobra]
Dec 21, 2009 (2:35 pm)
that might be true to a point when your talking about high volume vehicles like the Camry or Accord but I have a Acura TL and Nissan Maxima, both of which are made and assembled in the US and they are no where near as high in volume sold as the Camry is and I've had fit/finish, interior squeaks/rattles, and mechanical/technical problems with both cars since delivery to me directly from the factory!
On the other hand, the Acura TSX, Lexus ES350, and Infiniti FX35 I had, which all were made in Japan, I had absolutely no problem with them; but as mcdawgg pointed out, he had gotten a vehicle from Japan which he had rattle problems with so there is no guarantee whether you get a car from Japan or one made here in the US that it won't have fit/finish, interior squeaks/rattles, or mechanical/technical issues
I personally think your chances of getting one problem free are greater if it comes from Japan but others who have had the opposite experience will tell you the complete opposite so there is no way to know for sure, as mcdawgg has pointed out so you have to go by what your own personal experience has been!
What I've tried to do over the years is if I hear a rattle or noise in the car I'm test driving I automatically removing it from consideration because that is usually a good indication you'll get one with a problem in it; I'm tired of getting cars and spending my time trying to track down and fix quality issues from the factory that cause these noises and make me go crazy and these japanese cars aren't cheap to be dealing with this crap!!
#46 of 47 Re: Prius Vs Camry [smarty666]
Dec 21, 2009 (4:49 pm)
And I've said before a rattle doesn't mean it was a bad assembly. Look at the dash rattle TSB for early 2007 Camrys - BOTH USA and JAPAN. That means one thing - DESIGN, not assembly.
#47 of 47 Re: Prius Vs Camry [mcdawgg]
Dec 23, 2009 (7:35 pm)
very true in certain cirumstances; if their is a TSB on a noise/rattle then your right, it is a design flaw in the product
unfortunately for me, the noises and rattles I have had have not been the result of a TSB and I've test driven the exact same car at the dealership and did not hear the noises reproduced in another model of the same car so mine have been an assembly/quality issue and not the result of a design flaw
boo for me!!!!