Last post on Dec 01, 2008 at 5:20 AM
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Honda S2000, Car Leasing, Convertible
#202 of 270 Re: Deal looks good [dwynne]
Jan 12, 2008 (10:16 am)
took an s2000 out last night for a test drive. wow. loved it. verynice very tight. handled like it was on rails. noisy and rough, but with the top down, it was NICe. the vtec wail was great and if you shift fast enogh it never falls out of VTEC and really moved nicely. quick.
i test drove an 08 RX8 and i must say the s2000 is quicke.r the rx8 is more "comfy"...but the s2000 is the choice for hardcore driving.
anyway..after the test drive i talk to the finance guy, told him I was interested but was not buying right then. it oldhim i would make my calls, chck around local dealers b/c i knew there was some wiggle room int he sellin price to get mymonthly payment down a bit more.
he acted like he was 100% positive that there was NO wiggle room AT ALL. he said that's thenational deal and we can't change it. i politely told him that i leased a 2007 MDX about 10 months ago,and that another dealer had told me that 100% they could NTO deviate formt he advertised national lease and with about 3 hpone calls I had people knocking 2000 off. I told him that same dealer that said "no way" was begging me to come back so he could match the deal I found elsewhere. i was polite, told them i knew they were in business to make money, but that I was a buyer would would do myhomework..and would get back to them.
i am near san diego, CA. a bit north by about 45 minutes. Temecula, CA. i havea honda dealer 5 min from my house.
so the big question is - how much cheaper can they go on the advertised lease special??
if i call up 5 dealers and say I'l come down in 1 hour and sign the paperowrk and drive an s2k off the lot BUT I want the car at $30k or $30500... or whatever...
where is the lowest i'm goin to find someone going?
my guess is if I said i'll pay $31500...or right around invoice, they would go for it.
that would save me another $1000 and bring the payment down anothe 25-30/month.
if I could put down $2500 and then have about a $350/month payment WITH CA tax...i'd bite.
BTW, i checkd into RX8 leases. FORGETABOUT IT. on a 36mo lease iwh 12k, the residual is like 50% and the MF is terrible. payment with 2500 down would be in the mid to high 400s. almost 100-150 higher than i can get on the s2000.
mazda better do something or their 08 RX8s are goin to sit and rot.
can I get $2500 out of pocket and $350/month WITh tax? that's a smokin deal.
the s2k is driving nirvana.
#203 of 270 Re: Deal looks good [23109vc]
Jan 12, 2008 (11:42 am)
The S is a fun car, no doubt about it. It is not for everyone, as you do put up with a sports car experience (stiff suspension and no sound insulation to speak of). You should test drive a used S2000, it would give you a better idea what it is like as things free up after a few thousand miles on the clock.
Used to have an 05 RX-8 and it was a nice car, the rotary is SMOOOOOOTH and the shifter may be even better than the S2000 gearbox. But it drank gas like is was water (14-15mpg around VS 23-24 in the S2000) and you have to keep the oil topped up. I got mine on a special lease deal from Mazda - $2,000 in incentives to take it plus another $500 rebate I had plus a 1% of so MF made it worth the payments. The resale value on them is nothing, that is the only lease car I have ever had that I turned back in. Every other one I could trade off or sell over and make some money on before lease end. Even at the residual amount I had no takers and MAC does not negotiate the buyout price so I let them have it back - and I was way under miles on it.
My guess is around invoice + dealer fee or a little more would be a nice price. Invoice looks like $31,689 on the "base" (non CR) S2000 for 08. The deal calls for a net cap cost of $31,141.79 so in order to get the $349 promo payment you would have to put down the $2,499 shown in the promo and the difference between the deal cap and your price + fees. Let us say you get invoice and there is no dealer fee, then you are looking at $3,046.21 plus TTL at signing to net a payment of $349 per month shown in the promo. I think CA taxes the payment at 8%, don't they? They would net you a payment of $376.92.
The thing to do is just contact the Internet sales departments at all the Honda dealerships within a radius of where you live and tell them you are interested in an 08 S2000 (no 07s will do) and you want their bottom line price for the car with destination and any dealer fees included. Get one at or real near invoice and you are ready to go. Once you have the price set, then you worry about the lease. Just make sure they charge you the proper bank fee ($595) and give you the buy rate (0.00054) if you qualify and you are all set. Some of the Hondas have dealer money on them which can't be combined with the cheap lease. In those case you have to disclose pretty early on your are doing the cheap lease, since they will give you a "cash" price on the car and then be unable to let you have it at that price if you do the cheap lease. The dealer simply does not get the incentive money on the cheap lease cars so can't price them as low. The S2000 as far as I know has no such incentive on it, so deal low on the price and once you get that then worry about the lease.
Remember, you don't have to put down anything or put the amount shown in the promo lease. You can put down less or nothing and just have a higher payment - which is what I recommend.
#204 of 270 Re: Deal looks good [dwynne]
Jan 12, 2008 (5:47 pm)
i'll email the local dealers and see how cheap I cang et them.
the rx8 is a run car, but it's not as fun as the s2k when you are just "driving".
for commuting and hauling a passenger (or two) the 8 would be a really great car. but i'm sort of worried about a used 8 as i know there are some issues with them and i'd hate to be making a used car payment and get hit with repairs.
i COULD find a really really low mile used 06 and have several years of warranty left..so i'd have some peace of mind, but the 8 depreciates like nuts. so i'd end up with a used 8 for say 18-20k. my monthly payment on a used one would be not too bad... but the lease deal ont he s2k is pretty good and that's for brand new with full waranty.
i'd be on the hook for my monthly payment and that's it.
also, i'm very much into performance. after driving the 8 and the s2k, i can say for a fact that the 8 would leave me wanting to mod it. i'd for sure want to stiffen up[t he springs, sway bars...and then i'm dumping a couple of grand just tog et it to handle like the s2k. the s2k, when i drove it, was PERFECT as is. i know guys mod it, but bone stock the s2k would be FINE for me and I would be perfectly happy to drive it through out the lase and NOT mod a thing.
the 8 would get me in the mod mood..and i don't know if I really want to buya usd car that i need to mod to make me happy in it. if i bougth used, i could do mods, and mazdaspeed sells stuff that the dealer won't void warranty on...so you can do it.
i wonder what would handle better. a bone stock s2k, or an 06 RX8 with coilovers, sway bars, strut bars? hmmmm...
very tough decision. buying used vs a lease of new. the new s2k would be more fun to thrash around but at the end of the lease, you've spent that money and you "own" nothing.
on a used rx8 purchase, say i pick it up for 20k out the door. spend 2k to make it handle like the s2k (or maybe even OUT handle the s2k) and in 4-05 years of payments i'd own it outright and lets say it was worth 20k when i bought it, in 5 years, maybe it's still wroth 5k or so... so i've "spent" a net of 15k.
on a 3 years lease,of an s2k, that's about all i'll spend. so in the short run i'd spend more on the s2k lease and spend less in the long run to buy the 8.
they are both cool cars.
i really hate that digital LED bar graph looking tach on the s2k and I love the 8's tach/gauge setup. very cool. i like the shifter int he 8 better too.
i need to test dive a used 8 to see how i like it.
of course my wife thinks I should wait for the 09 TL that is AWD, then sell my s70 volvo, and put the cash toward that.
i kinda want a sports car though.
#205 of 270 Re: Deal looks good [23109vc]
Jan 12, 2008 (9:03 pm)
The 8 is sports car, but is more of a GT in looks and somewhat in feel. The smoothness of the motor and the non-hard ride can fool you into thinking it is not fast and not handing the road. But it you drove them back to back over the same roads you would see the 8 does not give up much to the S. My problems with it were the gulping of gas, slurping of oil, and lack of resale value and also long term reliability. So while I loved driving the car, loved the look of it inside and out - my 8 GT 6mt w/Nav was much, much "richer" looking inside and out - I just could not pull the ownership trigger. I loved the M5 I used to have too, until it started having failures (with less than 15k on the clock) and left me stranded 2 month in a row. So like the 8 it had to go. The 8 stereo was not too good and the odd-ball design and Bose amps means no cheap upgrade - the S is a standard DIN stereo with standard size door speakers.
The S has little insulation sound or temp, just look under the fender wells or under the dash. It is a bare bones sports car - but has some luxury touches like leather, power roof, etc.
I went back and looked at the deal on my 05 S, it was $200-300 under invoice including the dealer doc fee. The MF was higher but the residual was as well, which along with the lower invoice back in 05 equalled a better deal. I think around $30 a month less that the deal today. The best price I have gotten so far on an 08 S is invoice plus dealer fee, but I think they will do it for invoice including the fee once I push them a bit. Since I still have a few months to go on my current lease, I think I will wait and see if the deals getting any better. After all, I have one to drive now and worst case I will just buy mine at lease end if nothing better comes up. I have been watching the S lease numbers for a while and even though they have not been selling well at all, Honda has not been doing really cheap leases - so this could be as good as it gets. Really no way for us to know.
#206 of 270 Re: Deal looks good [dwynne]
Jan 14, 2008 (9:04 am)
sent you an email. don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into an RX8 vs S2k discussion.
this is the s2k lease forum.
as for the lease deals - my goal is to get the car AT or below invoice and then use the attractive MF to get the lowest possible payment. the residuals looks average.
one question is this - my local dealer has 4 2007s and 2 2008s. the lease deal is only applicable to the 08s.
i'm knowledgeable enough about leases to understand how they work, what the different terms all mean, etc. i've read all the tutorials on leases and have leased two cars in the past.
for a toy car like an s2k - that i'll be driving short distances...and a car like the s2k that has a reputation for having great reliability...part of me wonders if i'd want to buy it and then keep it for 6-7 years. given the low mileage i'd put on it - it would probably last at LEAST that long for me. i'm not going to be commuting 100 miles a day in it. I will probably drive it to work - but i live 5 miles from the office - so a few hundred miles a month in commuting to work and then whatever I can put on it during evenings weekends.
i'm almost wondering if I'd be able to use up the 12k/year - probably not. i bet i'd be more like 5-7k.
so lets say I negotiate a purchse on a 2007 and there is some kind of incentive and I can get the purchase price down to about 28000 or so. the prices paid forum has guys claiming that's about what they paid. i'm guessing the 08s would sell at invoice, so 31500 or so.
so i can buy a new 07 and save 3500 or so. or lease an 08 and have the low MF. if I buy, i'd put a small amount down, say 3k and finance over the length of time i plan to own - say 72 months. the payment over 72 months is $457.
now on the lease, it's only 3 years. so in three years, I own nothing and have to turn it in. with the purchase, at the end of the payments I own the car. so you have to try to estimate what the car would be worth at the end of the payments, and then look at what you spent along the way.
to try and get an idea what a 6 year old s2k is worth, i hit kbb.com. i know the estimates are usually optimistically high...but for kicks, i put in a 2001 S2000 with 75000 miles. it claims a private party value is 15000. it says trade in is 10-12k. so lets assume the lowest value - it's worth $10,000 at the end of 7 years.
if I put down 3000 on the purchase, then pay $457/month for 72 months, plus my 3000 down payment, i've paid roughly $36000 for the car. and once i've paid all that mney, i have an asset with a value of about $10k were i to sell or trade it. so if you factor in the value of the asset, my net costs were really 26,000.
the lease for 3 years is $350/month with 3000 down. that comes out to about $15,600 over 36 months. if you threoretically did two of these leases back to back (yeah you can't b/c there won't be an s2k in 2011, but assume you found something comparable for the same deal) then you're net costs are about 31000.
31,000 - 26000 = 5000. So in the long run, you technically are 5000 "ahead" by purchasing the s2k and owning it outright. unless along the 72 months you have 5000 in repairs that you would NOT have on the leased cars. i can see some repairs being done but not 5k worth.
another upside to the lease scenario is that you have a NEW car from years 1-3 and then another NEW car from years 4-6. there are obvious upsides to having a new car vs a used/older one.
if you spread the 5000 "extra" across the 72 month period, you are essentially paying $70/month MORE to lease than to own - in the long run. in the short run you pay LESS by about $100/month. so if cash flow is tight, lease. but you won't have anythign to show for it in the end. just the fun of having the car while you pay.
if you buy, and you really like the car, years 7+ become gravy. NO payment, just drive it, enjoy it, and maintain it. costs will go way way down.
of course you know in 7 years there will be all new cars, and the s2k, as cool as you think it is now, will be "old" and a car nut like me will want something new. so
the whole lease vs buy thing is a hard call. there are short term benefits to leasing, but the purchase wins out in the long run. i think.
anyone care to correct my math? or point out wher my logic may be flawed?
as far as the lease deal is now - it seems good. it might get better, but probably not a whole lot.
#207 of 270 Re: Deal looks good [23109vc]
Jan 14, 2008 (9:33 am)
I'm going off of memory here but you should get the idea...
There have been arguments here that you can purchase the S at some $500/month and given the low mileage you expect to put on the car, you could sell it in 3-5 years and due to the lower miles than most, be able to sell it for a bit more than it is worth and make back some of the money you spent each month. Now, keep in mind that the S is slowing in sales so it might be harder to sell this in a 7 years as you posted (the car will essentially have been around for 14 years at this point). I ran through the exact debate you are going through right now. For me, money was huge factor and quite frankly, I couldn't afford to buy it unless I extended it for 6 or 7 year purchase which is nuts for the amount of miles I drive in a year. I found a dealership willing to let one go for $27,500 plus TTL. I could afford a 3 year lease but I didn't think I'd be ready to give up the S in 3 years but 4 years, I thought just maybe. After 4 years, if I still love this car, I'll buy it and possible negotiate an even lower price than what the residual is stated to be worth (if Honda is having trouble moving them now, hopefully, they'll have tough time moving them later). If not, I walk away a VERY satisfied driver. I've had my S since may of 2007 and almost 10,000 miles later, I still am very much in love with this car (it is a daily love affair). I'm still on the fence as to whether I"ll buy it or not; it will probably all depend on where I am financially in life in a few more years. If I can afford a 2nd beater car and save the S for the weekends, then I'll buy the S and give it a break from the daily driver duties.
On a side note about finances, the difference of my lease and what my purchase car payement would be, I do invest the difference into an emmigrant account which makes about 4.5% right now, which is signifcanntly higher than my interest rate negotiated on my lease rate. So, by leasing, I've also managed to save/invest almost $1700 to date. Over the entire lease term, I'll have invested almost $10,000.
#208 of 270 Re: Deal looks good [accelerator]
Jan 14, 2008 (9:51 am)
Honda can't sell S2000s, even with cheap promo lease deals and/or huge dealer incentives. Heck, they have as much as $2,500 IIRC on 07s last year and I know most dealers still have several of those on the lot.
This means you are going to have trouble selling a used one - if Honda is selling them for $27,500 new then that depresses the whole market.
That said, if you can lease one now cheap (the current deal is 1.3% effective) then I would do the lease, then perhaps buy rather than buy outright. At the end of the lease you can try to sell the car, trade it, turn it in, or buy it. If you run the numbers, paying a new car payment at the current rates VS leasing then buying at used car rates (which are higher than new rates) will probably come out $1k or $2k behind doing lease/buy than doing buy. Your actual number will vary and could be closer to $1k., You can't know the used car rate in 3 years either. I figure if you get the lease/buy that close to buy then go for it then all the options are in your hands. If you buy on a long loan you may well be upside down in 3 years and CAN'T get out of the car.
The glory days of high residuals are gone now. My first S was an 01 and IIRC I paid $27,500 for it (used with 1,700 miles on it) and the 3/36 residual for it was around $19,500. At the time the lease was up the car would be over 4 years old. The residual on my 05 (new for $30,000) is just under $20k. The residual on the new 08 ($32k invoice) is under $20k. So the price goes up and the residual stays the same or goes down.
#209 of 270 Re: Deal looks good [dwynne]
Jan 14, 2008 (11:09 am)
I'm leaning toward the lease.
a big factor is that this is a "toy" purchase. you know, with the economy the way it is, part of me even wonders if i would be smarter to just wait 6 months and THEN see what the deals are like. My job, luckily, is public safety/gov't - so while nobody is 100% immune to layoffs/etc... i'm about as insulated as one can get. we may have hiring freezes, or no cost of living adjustments, no raises, but the odds of being let go - at my seniority level - not going to happen. so that being said, i'm comfortable biting off a toy purchase even with the problems we are facing, but i'm more than happy to wait if the deals will get a LOT sweeter.
since this is a toy purchase, and while I make a good living, i'm NOT independently wealthy, and do have two other cars to pay for, and 3 little mouths to feed at home - the lower i can keep the monthly costs the better. leasing gives me a lower monthly payment - and like Dennis said, my options are open. if i love the car and don't puta lot of miles on it, and it's worth more than my residual, i can buy it and in the end, i really won't be that worse off than had i bought at the get go.
i still think about the rx8, but for a car that is just for ME - the s2k is the way to go. right now, i drive my POS volvo to work, and every mile i drive i think how much i hate the car. it's not really that i hate it, it's that I hate NOT having a fun car. so I "take it out" on my daily driver/commuter which really is a GREAT car for what it is. but having an s2k to drive to/from work - to redline the stink out of it and have the wind in my hair on nice sunny southern CA days - what a blast. of course convincing my wife that I should take off on sat / sun morning for a drive by myself, while she stays at home with 3 kids is gonna be a tough sell. although, once I get her away on a few all day drives, and the kids are left at home with a sitter - I think she'll see how much fun it will be.
i don't know about you guys, but to me - driving a sports car is like stress therapy. havin ga fun car to drive, a truly fun car like an s2k or a boxster, an rx8, a miata, or anything that plasters a smile on your face as you listen to the motor, shift the gears - it's a stress reliever, mental health booster - whatever you want to call it.
i'd rather to for a 30 minute drive, bang off the rev limiter and get my fix that way instead of going home and having a makers mark.
#210 of 270 New Lease Program in Los Angeles
Jan 14, 2008 (2:41 pm)
Just saw this listed on Miller Honda's website (Van Nuys, CA):
(I did not see it posted before, sorry if it is a re-post)
Offer good from 01/03/2008 to 03/03/2008
2008 S2000 Featured Special Lease
$349.00 per month for 36 months. $2,499.00 total due at signing.
Includes down payment with no security deposit. Excludes taxes, titles and fees. For well-qualified buyers.
FEATURED SPECIAL LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2008 S2000 Manual Transmission (Model AP2148ENW) for $349.00 per month for 36 months with a $1,555.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $2,499.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, AHFC upfront acquisition fee and capitalized cost reduction; with no security deposit. Total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify. See dealer for complete details.
#211 of 270 Re: New Lease Program in Los Angeles [bernat]
Jan 14, 2008 (2:56 pm)
It is the same as posted on the Honda web page, the numbers work out to a low 0.00054 MF (1.30% equivalent) with a so-so 56% residual. The net is a pretty good lease deal, but not quite a good (payment-wise) as they have done in the past.