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Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences BMW 3-Series Lease Questions
2456 messages, Last post on Sep 06, 2008 at 1:51 PM
You are in the Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum. Your Hosts are car_man & kyfdx
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Replying to: boomer23 (Dec 29, 2007 1:12 am) town (Tucson, AZ) yesterday. I'm posting the details here to see if my deal seems crazy, and to get validation that I wasn't incorrect in my calculations. Car Details: * 335i Sedan w/ 6spd manual + ZSP Sport Package + ZPP Premium Package + iDrive Navigation + iPod /USB Adapter + Metallic paint (color: Sparkling Graphite Metallic, interior Gray / Burl Walnut trim) (MSRP 46,900 including dest) Lease: 3 Year (36 Month) / 12k/year. $3000 out of pocket. After an hour of back and forth (they started out at $732 w/ tax), they came out with two pieces of paper with lease numbers on them. The first piece of paper had the dollar amounts for the lease, the second had stuff like taxes, money factor, residual on it. At one point I pulled out my PDA w/ pocket excel and wrote the #'s down off their sheet (not sure that they liked me doing that). I offered them $44900 ($2000 off MSRP) to start with. They "accepted" this but then added $825 to that for the "aquisition fee". ======================================================= Paper #1: Money Factor .0020, Residual 63%. Paper #2: Fees: Doc Fee $239 (bogus?) License $665 (this is accurate) Dwn Pmt Sales Tax $108 First Pmt $652 -------------------------- Total $1661 Lease Numbers: MSRP $46900 Sale Price $45725 -- they added an $825 aquisition fee here Residual Amount $29547 Capcost Reduction $1339 -- My 3k after taking out those fees. Net Cap Cost $44386 Depreciation fee $412 Finance Fee $188 --- This seems bogus to me! this is not  .0020 MF? Monthly Payment $652 ========================================================== Tax is 8.1%... At this point I argued that "Paper #2" must have not used .0020 as the money factor, in fact it looks like they used .0025. The salesman threw me a sheet of paper, actually a printout from edmunds.com, on how a lease is calculated and said "All leases are calculated the same, look for yourself, your calculations are wrong". So I told him to use his calculator and the formula on the paper he printed out: (Negotiated Price + Residual Value) * Money Factor = Finance Fee. He did and when it came out to $147 he put away the paper and said "well we don't do leases like that, we use the computer." and stepped away. At this point I think I pissed them off, he brought out the "general manager" who said he was "already feeling bad about this deal" and he had "never seen a price this low with so little profit in his 16 years at BMW". I told him I couldn't buy a car with these numbers not adding up, and he insisted along with the salesman that the MF was .0020 and I was wrong. So I walked. I dont think I was wrong.. besides the stupid fees, which I dont think are legit, They were doing two shady things: #1 -- not being truthful about the money factor #2 -- adding the aquisition fee to the negotiated price, which means it then increases the term depreciation! Fees dont depreciate, the car does. I really believe $590 a month is possible with $3k out of pocket, does that seem crazy?
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Replying to: kefler (Jan 01, 2008 1:23 pm) It doesn't really matter if they add it to the CAP cost, or you pay it out of the $3000, and your CAP reduction is smaller. The effect is the same. All charges, minus money upfront results in Net Cap Cost. Depreciation is Net CAP Cost minus Residual. It doesn't matter that the car depreciates, it's a mathematical formula. Doc fee-- Extra profit for the dealer.. a lot of dealers charge this. Money factor... Looks like they were marking it up the maximum to .0024, plus adding the .00015 security deposit waiver, for a total of .00255 They either don't know the money factors ("we just use the computer"), or they were lying to you ("we just use the computer"). Some salespeople have no idea what F&I does, what the mark-ups might be, etc... but, I can guarantee that the manager knows. I don't know if you can get to $590, but given your paramaters, and the $3K upfront, you should certainly be able to get to $600-$610 without any problem. Maybe you'll have to expand your search to Phoenix.. regards, kyfdx Host-Prices Paid Forums
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Replying to: kyfdx (Jan 01, 2008 8:17 pm) I'm just not happy that they would show a printout that said the MF was .0020 and then use .00255 when calculating the numbers. The problem with the situation is that they got "upset" about me telling them the #'s did not make sense. I dont want to accuse them of being dishonest (even though of course they will only be as honest as they absolutely have to be) but I just want them to lower the MF, or atleast say what they are using. One more question, do you know what the security deposit is? If it's refundable It might make sense to pay it and save the $10 or $11 a month. Thanks.
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Replying to: kefler (Jan 01, 2008 9:10 pm) So, yes... it is definitely wise to make the deposit. Returning BMWFS customers get the deposit waived, with no bump in the MF. The 335i sedan isn't a high demand, low supply item. I think your offer of $2000 off MSRP was more than fair.. They shouldn't have to rake you over in the finance office to make up for it. Most dealers that have doc fees aren't going to cut them, so it probably isn't worth wasting your breath on that one.. But, you should insist on the base rate MF (buy rate in industry lingo), and if they won't cut the acquisition fee to $625, then ask them to cut the price by that amount. If you make the security deposit, get the buy rate on the MF, and get $200 cut out of the acq.fee, you'll knock $45/mo. off the payment they quoted you.. With tax, thats around $49/mo.less. That would be a decent deal. 
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Replying to: kyfdx (Jan 01, 2008 9:17 pm) to go back and deal with these guys... being the only dealer in town I'd have to go there for service no matter what. I have been puzzling over why they didn't just put the aquisition fee in the 'fee' column but instead added it to the price of the car. While its true it doesn't matter if my $3k goes to reducing the capcost or to fees, I think they make an extra $50 in "sales tax" on the capcost reduction by adding it in for the #'s they show to me. (the $108 tax) Maybe it would have been easier to not talk lease numbers and just monthly payment, but I always feel dumb doing that.
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Replying to: kefler (Jan 01, 2008 10:38 pm) Most people don't understand money factors and lease calculations.. Dealers like those people... for obvious reasons. There is nothing wrong with negotiating by monthly payment, if you know how you are getting to that payment. Good luck with it. |
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Any word on the Jan money factors and residuals? Specifically I am interested in MF and residuals for the 335xi Sedan for 36 months with 10K and/or 12K miles. Thanks!
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Replying to: jackals (Jan 03, 2008 8:56 pm) |
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Posted this over at bimmerfest, but figured I'd also cross post. In some states, tax is calculated based on the use of the car. For those states, when you want to roll the tax into the payment, the calculation is simple: [(Monthly Depreciation Charge) + (Interest Charge)] * (Sales Tax) = Monthly Tax Charge But what about states (like MD) where the tax is based on the selling price of the car? How do you determine the tax if you are rolling it into the payment? Is it simply: (Sales Tax) * (Selling Price) / (Term) = Monthly Tax Charge I think it wouldn't be like that since if it is going into the monthly payment you'd have to pay some sort of interest charge, but I'm not sure how to calculate it? Any pointers? Thanks in advance. Ross
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Replying to: smithre4 (Jan 04, 2008 10:14 am) TAX is added to the CAP cost, as BMWFS will pay it to the state upfront.
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