Edmunds.com | Inside Line | Auto Observer Your Account | Help | Directory
You are here:
![[F]](http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/townhall/webxicons/site.gif){kind=small}
Forums
Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Audi A4 Lease Questions
3123 messages, Last post on Nov 10, 2009 at 6:11 PM
You are in the Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum. Your Hosts are car_man & kyfdx
|
Replying to: edwardsf (Jun 08, 2007 1:26 pm) Regarding your attempt to equate the validity of my post with whether there is pending litigation is silly. Certain hostile business practices are legal, others are illegal. You can choose to do business with whomever you like. It is certainly not illegal to charge someone MSRP on a car, and if you don't mind the practice, feel free to buy the car at MSRP. Regarding legality, while I question whether this practice violates California Unfair Business Practices Law, considering in the end I will incur no damages as a result of this hostile practice other than lost time, there is no reason to litigate. Even if I were to incur a loss by having to pay a dealer or third party a premium to purchase the car from Audi at an inflated price, it would not be worth my time to litigate as the loss would be under $2,000. Regarding your comment of the litigiousness of lawyers, behind every sleazy lawsuit is a willing client. I posted this in the first place because others may not be so lucky in avoiding double taxation depending on their state of residency and familiarity with tax laws. Others may have a change in circumstances that requires them to try to exit their lease and get into a different car (whether it be having children, loss of life, change of job, etc...) Audi has chosen to pursue a practice that benefits them at the expense of the lessee. This practice is not disclosed in the lease agreement. This practice is not done by other leasing companies. Whether it is legal or illegal really isn't the point. You can choose to do business with whomever you like, but you should know all the facts prior to making your decision. Oh, and by the way, in response to your equestion regarding "selling or trading" the lease, and why I did not respond to that suggestion, the answer follows. As if it were not obvious, why would one ever trade a lease with one month remaining. Your suggestion made no sense. However, just so everyone is aware, you cannot assign your Audi lease to a third party (through leasetrader or other similar programs) in the last 12 months of the lease. Most lenders do not have this restriction, some have a sixth month restriction. Moreover, you remain liable for the lease even after the lease is assigned to the third party (unlike many other lenders, who allow a clean assignment). Just more food for thought for those considering an Audi lease.
|
|
|
Replying to: mcwenzel (Jun 08, 2007 2:51 pm) http://www.edmunds.com/advice/strategies/articles/48244/article.html Don't worry, I won't be calling you in three years, the liars....I mean lawyers I deal with know the difference between to, two, and too. ". When I inquired about Audi doing the same, multiple Audi dealers told me that Audi will jack up the price on them to." Jabs aside, I know you aren't in a lawsuit, and I know you aren't trying to get out of a lease agreement early. The double taxation thing is still muddy waters for some people, even in the article I have linked into this posting. She is going for the State Taxation Board for a double taxation claim, which is BS. She did not buy the vehicle until the end of the lease, where she should be taxed on the residual price of the vehicle plus any applicable fees she agreed to. Now whoever buys it after her purchase must pay sales tax on their purchase of the vehicle from her. So no double taxing is going on. If there was better resources on this forum, I would draw a diagram with cute stick figures and all. I understand leases, loans, and taxation. In this article, she discovered what a dealer would do to either help or hinder a third party in obtaining the vehicle. If the residual was 15k and the market of the vehicle held strong at 18k, I would like to meet the SOON-TO-BE-FIRED Finance Manager at a dealership that would turn away, plus AID in the effort to get the third party in the vehicle for 15k when they could make so much more by telling both parties that it can't be done, then taking the third party and selling them a car for about the same price he had worked out or maybe a little less. In this case, the dealer also has the lessee by the you know what because if the lessee was over mileage or past normal wear and tear, they just took the lessee's get-out-of-jail-free card away and now they can charge the lessee the appropriate fees when he is now forced to turn the vehicle into them since they took away his buyer--Just playing the devil's advocate that always chases the dollar. Situation #2 is that the market of the car actually is 13k and your buy out is still 15k, which is more likely with most brand of manufacturers over Audi (greater depreciation rate per year, rather than the roughly %12 Audi currently maintains), so your third party would be an idiot to step in the finance room to make that deal with you. So the black and white has been established here, but now there is a grey we haven't even talked about. First Audi has a Premier Purchase Plan, after skimming through the rules, it seems like they put the title of the vehicle in your name from day one, but treat it much like a lease, so I hate to use the arse-out-of-u-&-me word here, but I would assume there is a sales tax situation wrapped up in the program somewhere, maybe even before the term end. So this is also a purchase, with some lease restrictions with a balloon payment at the end for the purchase of the vehicle, which eliminates the taxation at the end, again I am only assuming. The gray area also has the down and dirty idea of buying it from the dealer, with your money (which is better) or money fronted by the third party, then selling it to your third party for say 1k, which you can put on the title when you sign it over to him on the back of the document or in a bill of sale note, but don't put down "gift", b/c the DMV in most states have caught on to this and will go with market value of the vehicle. He pays virtually nothing for taxes and you have payed tax once. If the DMV is curious about this, the third party can say it was a "favor" deal, happens all the time. For the rest of the amount come to an agreed understanding of why this helps the two of you out and plan out the rest of the payment plan. -"You don't know what they don't know." P.S. I would recommend doing it this way since the poster of the article referenced in this reply tried to comply with California Law and the whole ten day policy and she still ran into snags. No surprise there, state officials make the law and they still can't interpret it correctly for the people of which it governs. Ye have little faith, no, Ye have no faith!
|
|
|
Replying to: raudiaudi (Jun 08, 2007 9:08 pm) Again, Audi charges MORE to sell the car to a dealer than they do the lessee. Other leasing companies do not do that. That was my original premise, and you have not disproved it. Regarding buying the car "from the dealer" as your "gray area", you can't buy the car from the dealer unless the dealer buys it from Audi first. And guess what, the price the dealer can buy it for is a special increased price that exceeds your residual. So sure, give up your residual price, have the dealer buy it for $1500 more, and then buy it from the dealer, and then sell it to a third party. Yeah, that makes a great deal of sense. Regarding the third party process in california, I read the same article. The author fails to mention numerous ways to avoid ever having to go to the DMV, which begin with signing a limited power of attorney with your lender to allow them to move title directly from the manufacturer, through you, to the third party. I have no idea why the author paid sales tax to a dealer, particularly when California law is clear that if purchasing for resale within ten days, no tax liability is owed. What little value I did glean from your post simply supports my point, so I have to thank you. What is so easy to do with many lenders is extremely difficult to do with Audi (and apparently difficult to do with Nissan). You finally understand. Regarding the Audi Premier Purchase Plan, sure, you can go that route, but not only will your payments be higher than if you had a lease, but you also can only select 15k miles a year. Great plan. And note was is not in the details of the PPP. Whether a third party or dealer can buy the car for the same balloon payment. I have a pretty good idea what the answer is. So it seems your solution, and correct me if I am wrong, is to buy the car from a dealer at a premium well over your residual (because that is the only way you can buy the car from the dealer), and then commit fraud in the title transfer to the third party, rather than simply applying for a refund with the State Equalization Board? Wow, and people hold lawyers in low esteem. I highly, highly recommend you don't follow this advice. Simply complete the transfer within ten days in California or suck it up and pay the tax. In other states, check the taxation laws.
|
|
|
Replying to: mcwenzel (Jun 08, 2007 9:59 pm)
|
|
|
Replying to: raudiaudi (Jun 09, 2007 2:10 pm) For the dealer to sell it to you, they have to buy it first. Thus, there is no reason to buy the car from the dealer when you have the right to buy it directly from the finance company. The problem arises when you want to trade the car in to a dealer for another car or have a third party buy the car. If you try to do this, the dealer will have to purchase the car at "fair market value" determined by Audi Financial, and not your negotiated residual. The FMV will likely exceed your residual. There are no add of "fees" by the dealer. The increase in price is a result of Audi Financial charging the dealer a buyout price that exceeds your residual. As I have stated multiple times already, there is no provision in the leasing contract stating that Audi will do this. There is no provision stating Audi will not. The contract is silent on this issue, and therefore, until you are actually in the situtation, you would have no idea what their policy is. The practice of charging a dealer "FMV" solely determined by Audi Financial instead of the negotiated residual is a practice not utlized by other leasing companies. The dealer is not re-negging on a residual. The dealer is simply a conduit/agent in the transaction. You can still buy the car from the Audi Financial at the price in your contract. A third party cannot without paying a premium well above the lessee's residual. Regarding your justification for evading taxes, it sounds like Wesley Snipes in his tax evasion trial. I suggest you petition your State congressman/woman regarding state tax policy rather than commit tax evasion because you disagree with the policy of the government. |
|
|
Replying to: mcwenzel (Jun 10, 2007 10:48 am) Regarding your claimed scenario #2, you claim that the contract is silent on the criteria regarding buyout and you don't like and disagree with their interpretation of the buyout clause. Well, hello Mr. Contact-Law-Expert - Negotiate! Or sue them. If indeed, it is industry practice to interpret such clauses in auto leases differently than AFS does, that practice is indeed industry custom and such custom is probative towards interpreting the disputed lease terms. But since - after what? 4 posts - you, Mr. I-Know-Everything-But-Am-Losing-My-Shirt-Anyway have not given me ANY links, I can only assume that industry custom does NOT normally let you buy your way out of a lease with no type of penalty (or the equivalent, an inflated market value). You are just mad because you can't take advantage of AFS the way you probably do in your work by the use of your quite impressive but still confusing and bombastic rhetoric. |
|
|
Replying to: edwardsf (Jun 10, 2007 5:37 pm) "Regarding your claimed scenario #2, you claim that the contract is silent on the criteria regarding buyout and you don't like their interpretation of the buyout clause" Classic. Since nobody could be this criminally stupid, at this point I am convinced my wife put you up to posting as a practical joke and/or you and RaudiAudi are the same person and this is an endless troll. Either way, I'm out. I need to get back to using confusing and bombastic rhetoric to take advantage of multi-billion dollar corporations. If anyone needs any advice on how to navigate the third party buyout in California or the inherent risks unique to an Audi/VW lease, feel free to e-mail me.
|
|
|
Replying to: mcwenzel (Jun 10, 2007 6:01 pm) Glad you gave up on Dumb and Dumber, though. It was hopeless. If either of them were your client - you would have to fire the client. 
|
|
|
Replying to: mcwenzel (Jun 10, 2007 6:01 pm) However, if a lease is made through a dealer directly with AFS, AFS is bound by the contract, if the dealer didn't go about it this way, i.e. carried you through the lease then you said you want to buy the car at the end of it, which this most likely sounds like your case, then yea, you did get hosed and should have known better. You make it sound as if AFS inks a deal with someone when a car is leased, tells them specific numbers in writing, then backs out and says, oh yea, that residual, we were just kidding, actually, here is the real price which is more like FMV. I will ask when I go for an Audi lease if the paper is carried by them and all terms of the agreement are going to be honored by them or if it won't happen because the dealer or another third party lessor will have to at that time buy the car from AFS. Here are your paragraphs..... |
|
|
JHC....... i had to sign up for this forum just to post this after reading this thread. anyone reading this --- do yourself a favor and pay attention to the posts by mcwenzel. i read contracts every day and he has a clear understanding of, and provides a clear understanding of, the relevant topics. reading the posts of the other side in this "debate" is like reading a dr seuss book upside down after having 5 pints. btw, if anyone wants to reply, what is the bottom line on a 36 mo a4 lease, 12k miles, say $2k down? or just the 36 mo residual and money factor used would be great to have. seems like they must have a pretty low mf if my sister in law is accurate that she landed a new a4 2 mos ago for 360/mo inclusing taxes.
|
|
You are here:
Forums
Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Audi A4 Lease Questions
New? Join Now!
Forum Tools
Search Forums
Browse by Vehicle
2010 Audi A4
Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
Today's Chats
