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Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Acura TSX Lease Questions
875 messages, Last post on Nov 19, 2008 at 8:34 AM
You are in the Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum. Your Hosts are car_man & kyfdx
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Replying to: yesaccasey (Aug 05, 2007 7:35 am) Either you are living in a state without taxes, or I am getting royally screwed. I know my residual was 62%, but the manager was out and the salesman didn't know the current money factor. Should I walk away from this deal? |
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Replying to: Car_man (Aug 31, 2005 2:03 am) |
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Replying to: confused13 (Aug 06, 2007 8:42 pm)
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I live in NY and it was my first lease. Got an '08 w/o nav for the $1595 down and $299/month. I had to pay tax. My total was $3722 at signing for everything. Hope this helps someone get a good deal. |
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Replying to: confused13 (Aug 06, 2007 8:42 pm) Here's the ad... Offer valid through: 9/4/2007 FEATURED SPECIAL LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2008 TSX 5-Speed Automatic Transmission (Model CL9688JW) for $309.00 per month for 36 months with a $1,595.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $2,499.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, security deposit, AHFC upfront acquisition fee and capitalized cost reduction; total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify. Subject to limited availability. Through 9/4/2007, to approved lessees by American Honda Finance Corp. Closed end lease for 2008 TSX 5-Speed Automatic Transmission vehicles (Model CL9688JW), for well qualified lessees. Not all lessees will qualify. Higher lease rates apply for lessees with lower credit ratings. MSRP $28,860.00 (includes destination) less the capitalized cost reduction (which may be paid by the suggested dealer contribution) resulting in actual net capitalized cost $26,590.23. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect actual lease payment. Taxes, license, title fees, options and insurance extra. Total monthly payments $11,124.00. Option to purchase at lease end $18,470.40. Lessee responsible for maintenance, excessive wear/tear and 15 cents/mi. over 10,000 miles/year for vehicles with MSRP less than $30,000, but for vehicles with MSRP of $30,000 or more, mileage cost is 20 cents/mi. over 10,000 miles/year. See dealer for complete details. ____________________________________________________________________ According to this Ad, there is $2499 due at lease signing which includes a $1595 cap reduction (i.e., down payment). The difference is $904. This difference includes 1st payment ($304), security ($325... $304 round up to the next whole $25). So, by default, one can logically conclude that the acquisition fee is $275 which is not very much by today's standards. Hmmmmm... One can also infer that the residual factor is 64% (i.e., 18,470.40/28,860.00 = 0.64). In other words, the Ad implies a residual buyout if you choose to exercise your purchase option at lease end. Now, when one couples the $309 with the net capitalized cost (an outdated term) of $26,590.23 and the $18,470.40 residual value using the money factor formula, one computes a money factor of 0.001852. This looks very funny to me because I've never seen a money factor with non-zero digits exceeding three. The money factor formula is used to compute the payment... Payment = MF x (AC + RV) + (AC - RV)/Term (months) where: MF = Money Factor AC = Adjusted Capitalized Cost (Net Capitalized Cost is the old FRBB's Reg. M terminology and is no longer applicable). RV = Residual Value And so, we have... 309.00 = 0.001852 x (26,590.23 + 18,470.40) + (26,590.23 - 18,470.40)/36 Again, the 0.001852 money factor looks very funky to me. I'm anxious to see exactly what the new money factor for August actually is because something just doesn't seem right. My best guess is that the new MF is 0.00185 and the actual payment is $308.91. Perhaps the Ad rounded this to the next whole dollar or $309.00 but even this seems very strange. Usually, they don't do that. The important thing to recognize is this... If you must pay the $1,595 cap reduction, the selling price of the car is the MSRP or $28,860.00. If the dealer pays the $1,595 cap reduction, then, effectively, you're only getting a $1,595 discount off of the MSRP... doesn't seem like a very good deal to me. As far as I know, invoice pricing is not available. See the following links... http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/acura/tsx/100890849/options.html?action=1&x=68&y- - - =13 AND http://www.kbb.com/KBB/NewCars/PricingReport.aspx?VehicleId=OC8xMi8yMDA3fDE5NjQz- - - OA%3d%3d&PCFVehicles=&ManufacturerId=2&VehicleClass=NewCar&ModelId=6&Path=Pricin- - - g&YearId=2008#survey There are no incentives on the '08's as far as I'm aware... http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/acura/tsx/100890849/incentives.html?vdp=off&setz- - ip=44256&state=OH If you are serious about getting this car, I would INSIST that the dealer pay the cap reduction which amounts to discounting the MSRP by $1,595. In fact, I would seek a $2,300 discount which would bring your adjusted cap to $26,560 assuming you're not financing anything. Otherwise, without knowing invoice pricing, I would seriously question whether or not you're getting a good deal. ???... let me know. Hope this helps. John Medina, Ohio PS: Do a search on delta737h and examine my posts that include a sample lease proposal. It's always wise to create a one-page lease proposal as they save time, money, and aggravation. Good luck!
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Replying to: delta737h (Aug 10, 2007 3:59 am) MSRP $21,375.00 (includes destination) less the suggested dealer contribution resulting in actual net capitalized cost $18,052.58. This is very misleading and suggests that the selling price is $18,052.58. Net Capitalized Cost is an outdated Reg. M term that was replaced with Adjusted Capitalized Cost in 1999. A local Honda Dealer agreed and said he would be willing to sell the car for $18,052.58 BEFORE any cap reduction. Dealer contribution can be construed to mean dealer discount and NOT cap reduction. Interestingly, I notice that since I complained, AHFC changed the wording of this year's ACURA TSX Ad to... MSRP $28,860.00 (includes destination) less the capitalized cost reduction (which may be paid by the suggested dealer contribution) resulting in actual net capitalized cost $26,590.23. Notice the difference! This year's Ad is very careful to define dealer contribution as being the capitalized cost reduction whereas last year's Ad didn't do that. One really needs to be careful when reading advertisements. ALWAYS hold the finance captives accountable and responsible for the claims and representations they make. John Medina, Ohio |
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Replying to: delta737h (Aug 10, 2007 3:59 am) Enjoyed reading and going through your calculations. Not sure what your question was but here is what I came up with. The $2499 includes $309 + $595 + $1595. The $595 is Hondas Lease Fee (not negotiable). They charge this on all leases. There is no security deposit in their current offering.As you had said the $309 is the first payment and the $1595 is the cap reduction. I also agree with your rate of .00185 which equates to 4.4%, not as good as the 2.9% rate for purchase however. Using the .00185 I came up with a monthly pmt of $308.91. I am really interested in the TL. But it looks like to me that rate is .003 or 7.2%, not quite as good as the TSX. IMO the current lease rates are not that great. They have been better during the last year.
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Replying to: cpa3 (Aug 10, 2007 7:36 pm) I didn't have a question. I was simply writing some commentary ( posts #393Ɗ) in response to confused13's #390 post. If you read my post #393, you'll discover that I cut and pasted AHFC's current lease offer for the Acura TSX. It states, in part,... Offer valid through: 9/4/2007 FEATURED SPECIAL LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2008 TSX 5-Speed Automatic Transmission (Model CL9688JW) for $309.00 per month for 36 months with a $1,595.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $2,499.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, security deposit, AHFC upfront acquisition fee and capitalized cost reduction; total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify. ___________________________________________________________________ Note that the $2499 does include a security deposit. AHFC rounds security deposits to the next whole $25. And so, one can reasonably conclude that the acq. fee amounts to $270... 2499 = 309 + 325 + 1595 + 270 I had erroneously stated $275 in a previous post. I had also commented that this seems quite low. And so, the $270 acq. fee seems very peculiar to me. No matter, consumers should hold AHFC accountable for a $270 acq. fee because it is crystal clear that's what the Ad implies. I'm fed up with the on-going mistakes that this industry makes. There are many dealerships and lease software vendors that make mistakes when calculating leases; especially, sign and drive leases where the first payment is being capitalized. Payments and sales tax are often calculated incorrectly particularly in those states (e.g., Ohio) that compute sales tax on the total payments. One software developer agreed and said that they would amend their software. That was last December. To date, they have yet to amend their software. Hmmmm. Inappropriate or skewed computations only serve to justify the rationale for incorporating standard computational methods in the Federal Reserve Bank Board’s Regulation M paralleling those of its Regulation Z cousin. I know that an APR is meaningless except for purposes of amortizing leases that use the constant yield or actuarial method but money factors or lease interest rates should be disclosed. Although few fund providers use it anymore, the antiquated Rule of 78's should be discarded. Some fund providers use interest rates like GMAC to compute payments. I believe that Ford Motor Credit used interest rates to construct, what they called, Acquisition and Lease End Value factors. GMAC called them Capfactors and Resfactors... Payment = CapCost x CapFactor - Residual x ResFactor In the last revision to Reg. M (1998?), the FRBB sided with the NADA, NVLA, etc., lobbyists in making the ridiculous claim that such disclosures as money factors would only "confuse" consumers. That's crap and is both presumptuous and insulting. I'm not confused and many others aren't confused either. That's just a poor excuse for non-disclosure in an effort to keep people ignorant. What's so shameful is that I know more about leasing mathematics than most in this industry. I teach mathematics part-time at a local university and used to be a practicing actuary. And so, I'm very familiar with financial mathematics. I'm still anxious to learn the TSX money factor for August. I assume that the money factor used to compute the Ad's $309 payment is the buy rate (i.e., without reserves). John
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Replying to: delta737h (Aug 11, 2007 4:34 am) The acquisition fee is always $595. $309 + $1595 + $595 = $2499 regards, kyfdx
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Replying to: kyfdx (Aug 11, 2007 10:36 am) I appreciate your comments. However, we as consumers aren't mind readers and so, AHFC needs to be held accountable and responsible for their Ads. If I were leasing a TSX, I would hold them to a $270 acquisition fee. I'm absolutely convinced that I was the reason why they changed the wording on their Ads from one year ago. See my post #394. When you're in business and you make a mistake, you eat the mistake. I'm sick of people in this business making tons and tons of mistakes. I see them an awful lot especially on sign and drive leases. John
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