Edmunds.com | Inside Line | Auto Observer Your Account | Help | Directory
You are here:
![[F]](http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/townhall/webxicons/site.gif){kind=small}
Forums
Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
|
The point of of hybrid incentives is not and has never been about "letting the government dictate what car you buy." I has ALWAYS been about PROMOTING CLEAN AIR AND FUEL EFFICIENT VEHICLES That's all. That's the point. That's the entire goal. Clean the air, reduce gasoline burned. President Bush said recently: "Second part of a good plan is -- to confront high gasoline prices is to promote greater fuel efficiency. And the easiest way to promote fuel efficiency is to encourage drivers to purchase highly efficient hybrid or clean diesel vehicles, which, by the way, can run on alternative energy sources. Hybrid vehicles run on a combination of a traditional engine and an electric battery. The twin sources of power allow hybrid cars and trucks to travel about twice as far on a gallon of fuel as gasoline-only vehicles. When people are driving hybrids, they're conserving energy. Clean diesel vehicles take advantage of advances in diesel technology to run on 30 percent less fuel than gasoline vehicles do. More than 200,000 hybrid and clean diesel vehicles were sold in the United States last year. It's the highest sales in history. Congress wisely in the energy bill expanded a tax credit for purchase of hybrids and clean diesel vehicles up to as much as up to $3,400 per purchase. That made sense. If we're trying to conserve energy, if we want to become less dependent on oil, let's provide incentives for consumers to use less energy. The problem is that these tax credits apply to only a limited number of hybrid and clean diesel vehicles for each manufacturer. If the automakers sell more than their limit, new purchasers are not eligible for the full tax credit. And so here's an idea that can get more of these vehicles on the road, and that is to have Congress make all hybrid and clean diesel vehicles sold this year eligible for federal tax credits. We want to encourage people to make wise choices when it comes to the automobiles they drive. Now, anyone reading this, which part of those statements do not make PERFECT LOGICAL SENSE? |
|
|
Replying to: gagrice (Oct 14, 2006 5:03 am) Not all hybrids are selling like hotcakes. The dealers here cannot get rid of the Hybrid Highlander. Selling below invoice. Not sure about the RH, have not visited a Lexus dealer recently. They would never let on anyway. This then would make the HH a normal Highlander, all of which are selling below invoice as they enter their 6th year. This is a good thing since more buyers now can take advantage of the hybrid option. Hybrids are just becoming 'one of the boys' so to speak. |
|
|
Replying to: larsb (Oct 14, 2006 5:27 am) Because of a few tropical storms; We had record breaking gas prices. We had the threat of a fuel shortage, weather real or imagined depending on location. We had the threat of refineries and drilling platforms being out commission for months. Several of our major cities were in ruins from these storms. Our government was basically ineffectual in resolving any of these problems. Also remember this was the same year that by September you could not find a VW TDI for sale anyplace. Let’s see the sales for VW TDI equipped cars for the same period. |
|
|
Replying to: larsb (Oct 14, 2006 6:14 am) That is exactly what I said. The government is using their clout to move the market in the direction THEY choose. Here is the choice buy a Civic at MSRP. Buy a Civic Hybrid and MSRP and the government gives you a fat check. Plus just because you do our bidding you can circumvent the rules on high occupancy vehicle lanes. All the studies you show on this forum that are pro hybrid and anti diesel. Who pays for them? I would be willing to bet the bulk are paid for with our tax money. Who might be twisting the Congressman's arm to get legislation passed that controls our lives? Of course it makes perfect sense. It is the typical "do as I say not as I do". they would like us all riding around in some little cracker box car while they fat cat it in their limo or Suburban. I ain't buying into that crap.
|
|
|
Replying to: gagrice (Oct 14, 2006 6:29 am) Gary, if that "direction" which they are moving the market is GOOD FOR EVERYONE, then why is that bad? In other words, if the government is "telling us what to drive" and that is making the air cleaner, what is wrong with that?
|
|
|
Replying to: gagrice (Oct 14, 2006 6:29 am) Not to be unkind, but it is a source of continued both shock, and utter amazement, ESPECIALLY GIVEN the data cited by the web site Larsh posted, (thanks Larsh) that the growth of hybrids is interpreted any other way that what you (Gagrice) has penned. Again, the posted statistics almost totally confirms the hybrid in on the 138 year target to "take over the world" so to speak! |
|
|
Replying to: gagrice (Oct 14, 2006 6:29 am)
|
|
|
Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 14, 2006 7:14 am)   And you are NOT thinking it will take even a dim wit consumer 138 years to see there is at least one advantage here? If I could put the VW Jetta TDI on the IRS section 179 deduction of 25,000 per year current, (to 100,000 past, you know the one all those real estate folks bought 75,000 to 100,000 dollar hummers on?) I would quite literally cut my 18,000 dollar cost, at the very least in HALF. (I'm waking up from my dream now )
|
|
|
Replying to: larsb (Oct 14, 2006 6:38 am) I find that a very naive view of what the government is doing. First why is LEV, ULEV & SULEV being implemented now? Why wasn't it done 10 years ago or 15 years ago, if it was so important? Second you don't find it odd that they keep upping the limits on pollution just to keep diesel technology out of the mainstream? Or have you ever thought about the BIG picture here? Diesel as has been pointed out many times carries approximately 37% more energy than unleaded gasoline. The only alternative to unleaded is possibly ethanol. Of course that takes a giant hit on MPG so it is not a threat. Funny all the cars being pushed by Uncle Sam use fossil fuel. HMMMMM You say diesels use fossil fuel also. Ahhh but they can use diesel made from crops, old cooking grease, coal, natural gas etc etc. Unleaded is a commodity with no other choice but BIG OIL. The big carrot, we are going to give you cleaner air with this fancy complex hybrid technology. Just keep using BIG OIL, cause we don't want to rock the BIG OIL boat. Of course companies like Toyota like it as they have a car that looks green and attracts the pseudo environmentalist element in Hollywood. What better way to sell cars? You are right. "Some people will never get it". We are being suckered and don't even know it. Give me a real option and I may be interested. Not some complex piece of junk that is designed to last until the warranty is expired. Cars were the final hold out to our throw away society. The Hybrids changed that.
|
|
|
Replying to: gagrice (Oct 14, 2006 10:21 am) Gary, you know the answer to that - it's obvious. As we as a society UNDERSTAND things better, we can attack the problem with more knowledge and understanding of a problem. We know now that air pollution is in large part caused by vehicles, so we are attacking that with the EPA and legislation intended to help reduce pollution. gary says "Second you don't find it odd that they keep upping the limits on pollution just to keep diesel technology out of the mainstream?" It's not some "Grand Poobas Of Gasoline Worship" conspiracy, Gary. It's just that we have decades of diesel exhaust medical studies and we know the danger. we are making progress, and I know because LAST NIGHT for the FIRST TIME I noticed that the diesel pump in Phoenix at the ARCO AM/PM store had a "ULSD used at this pump" sticker on it. That's a big step toward getting diesel back into "vogue." Wait until the "clean diesel engines" get here in 2008, and diesel has a shot of being a big player in the fuel world. Until it's clean, REALLY AND TRULY CLEAN (meaning combining ULSD with a MODERN clean diesel engine) it will have a hard time gaining headway. PATIENCE my friend !!! Diesel engines add complexity also Gary. That's why there is a diesel upcharge on virtually every diesel model sold in the USA. The technology required to make it CLEAN ENOUGH is also going to add costs and complexity. So please don't act like "Hybrid Chinese Algebra" and "Diesel 2 + 2" because that is indeed a very broad oversimplification. And remember: Toyota has PLEDGED to reduce hybrid complexity by 50% and reduce cost and complexity while simultaneously INCREASING MPG to around 90 MPG with the next Generation Prius. Think of hybrid technology in similar terms of computer chips and hard drives: The older models, when the technology was in it's early stages, were HUGE, COSTLY, and COMPLEX. My boss once sold a 20 Megabyte hard drive for $10,000 !!! Now, there are 1-inch hard drives which hold 2 GB of data and cost around $200. And do I need to bring up cellular phones of the early 1980s versus today's phones? Technology ALWAYS get smaller and cheaper. gary says "Cars were the final hold out to our throw away society. The Hybrids changed that." Only in your mind. Dead hybrids (the numbers of which you insist will be in the THOUSANDS in a few years, which is highly doubtful) will be recycled at a before-unheard-of 90% rate. That's just means smarter use of junked cars than piling them up in real-estate-sucking junkyards.
|
|
You are here:
Forums
Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?
New? Join Now!
Forum Tools
Search Forums
Browse by Vehicle
Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
Today's Chats
