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Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 13, 2006 3:08 pm) The TCH has less of a battery than the Prius. Want to guess why? Sssh... don't mention that. It upsets certain people. It also quite upsetting to certain people that the Camry has an 'eco' hybrid mode because the batteries, even with a much touted full hybrid with electric A/C, aren't enough to power the A/C when it's hot for very long. Batteries just aren't going to get any cheaper. And as you said, LiIon is just about dead. And last time I checked, batteries cost the same today as they did 5 years ago. Even the 5K replacement battery pack for the prius costs... the same today as it did when the car was brand new. |
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I hadn't realized the arrival of ULSD was going to provide so much entertainment. The diesel responses were quite predictable. But for a die-hard supporter of "assist" hybrids to join in and stir the pot, that's the tops! I pointed out the long-term benefit of the "full" hybrid design, by augmenting the electric abilities. He focused entirely on the present instead, hoping to convince readers the two designs were the same... even though their actual operation has virtually nothing in common. Then he pointed out how no one would ever buy an augmented hybrid, since that modification invalidates the warranty. I, for the second time, had to point out that it would be the automaker itself providing that. So the claim of coverage denial was meritless. It got so silly, I didn't know how to proceed. The evidence of denial was absolutely overwhelming. It was good fun! Anywho, this was his quote that had me rolling: "Until a manufacturer offers an 'augmented' Prius or Escape for sale, they're the same. And let's face it, Toyota is not going to." So at his expense, I'm going to reveal out how he is dead wrong... just by pointing out that Toyota has already announced that they are planning to do precisely that. The 2009 Prius will indeed by augmented. By replacing the current NiMH battery-pack with a Li-Ion, electric drive abilities will be enhanced... increasing the current range from 3 to 9 miles. At the same time, the overall price of the system will drop. The result will be a more affordable hybrid with even higher efficiency. Ha! JOHN |
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Replying to: john1701a (Oct 13, 2006 4:46 pm) Are you convinced enough on that to make a wager? I say Lithium Ion batteries have some characteristics that will preclude them from ever being mainstream hybrid batteries. Even Toyota engineers are smart enough not to use a technology that has a very distinct life cycle. Age is the enemy of lithium ion batteries. Along with some hazards dealing with charging and fires. I am not sure how ULSD fits into the limitations presented by hybrid cars. Other than we will have a choice starting next week. Tell me how Toyota plans to augment the HSD into a vehicle that is as capable as a diesel alternative. Take for example the ML320 CDI vs the RX400h. What do you suppose Toyota will do to make it competitive with a diesel in its own price range? At this point in time the ML320 CDI gets better mileage, tows more and has no absurd off road limitations. PS You ignored the point about the TCH de-augmenting the batteries in their latest HSD. Maybe they are already seeing the light on long term battery replacement. Maybe they have changed out more than they like and want to cut their losses. |
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Replying to: john1701a (Oct 13, 2006 4:46 pm) When those new diesels hit you won't even hear the word hybrid.
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Replying to: houdini1 (Oct 13, 2006 5:56 pm) |
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Replying to: john1701a (Oct 13, 2006 4:46 pm) John, I know you find this hard to believe, but I don't support any one particular type of hybrid over another. I have said many times, I prefer the simplest solution for the best cost. And even tho I own a Prius, I am willing to concede that right now the best solution is NOT HSD. FYI - 3 to 9 miles of plug in power is not going to set the world on fire. Actually, if they're LiIon batteries, they may well set someone's garage on fire. |
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Replying to: houdini1 (Oct 13, 2006 5:56 pm) OTOH.. you might be wrong. That's prolly a little more likely. With the long history of good performance by diesels why have they not done better and appealed to more buyers in the non-CARB states? Only 45,000 light diesel vehicles were sold in the last year which is about 1/5th the number of hybrids sold. If diesels are such a dominating, revolutionary, innovative technology why has everyone been ignoring it in the non-CARB states thus far? Do you think a switch is suddenly going to be turned on? Aha diesels! There will be a long period of re-education of the American public toward light diesel vehicles. Honda better do a good job of it because the others who might be bringing diesels to market in 2008 don't have that great a rep and MB is way above the means of most buyers. If Honda succeeds then they all will tag along on it's coattails. |
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 13, 2006 9:31 pm) The question is how many hybrids were sold in the Non CARB states. I would bet the overwhelming majority were sold in CA. & NY two of the CARB states. Then add to that there are what at least 10 models of hybrids available in all 50 states. How many diesels available in the 45 non CARB states. If you look at the 45 states that are less skewed by politics I would imagine diesels do OK on sales. The availability of the #1 selling diesel car is another factor. Not all hybrids are selling like hotcakes. The dealers here cannot get rid of the Hybrid Highlander. Selling below invoice. Not sure about the RH, have not visited a Lexus dealer recently. They would never let on anyway. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 14, 2006 5:03 am) REGIONAL STRENGTHS California continues to lead the way for hybrids with 52,619 new hybrid vehicle registrations in 2005, up from 25,021 in 2004. California accounts for 26.4 percent of the nation's share for new hybrid units (Table 1). This outpaces second-ranked Florida by more than a five-to-one margin. Eight states (California, Florida, Texas, New York, Virginia, Illinois, Washington and Pennsylvania) accounted for more than 56 percent of the nation's hybrid registrations. Table 1 - Top 10 Hybrid States (2005 Calendar Year) Rank State Total New Hybrid Share of U.S. Registrations Hybrid Volume (%) 1 California 52,619 26.4 2 Florida 10,470 5.3 3 Texas 9,632 4.8 4 New York 9,372 4.7 5 Virginia 8,650 4.3 6 Illinois 7,286 3.7 7 Washington 6,970 3.5 8 Pennsylvania 6,948 3.5 9 Massachusetts 6,060 3.0 10 Maryland 5,673 2.8 Combined Top 10 123,680 62.1 So the top ten states have 62%. That still leaves more than a third from the rest. Hybrid registrations by state for 2005
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Replying to: larsb (Oct 14, 2006 5:27 am) The next year will be critical for hybrids. If they continue to sell with less tax credit and no HOV privilege in CA. They may be a permanent fixture. Of course the automakers have to be able to get enough batteries to satisfy the need. Maybe the new Prius will have even a smaller battery than the TCH. That would save money that Toyota could pass on to the buyer, NOT! |
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