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Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 13, 2006 1:26 pm) The stated goal of the next Gen is a 20% increase in FE over the Gen2; i.e. back up to 55 mpg real world every day. YMMV of course. jonnycat brings up a good point how does EPA account for a 20 mi no-fuel trip. How is that to be shown on a window sticker? What if the vehicle is plugged in overnight and then while at work and is run on battery only for an entire year using less than a tank of gas over say 8000 miles? Complex.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 13, 2006 1:42 pm) MPG is just what it means... Miles Per Gallon, which is how the EPA should rate it. I'm not saying that they shouldn't come up with new rating criteria, but if they're going to rate it via MPG they shouldn't take grid charging into account. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 13, 2006 6:20 am) So you don't understand why they are NOT THE SAME either. Ok. Here's some basics... ASSIST = There is a single small motor sharing the same shaft as the engine, resulting in the RPM of both components to always be identical. Neither can operate independently. Electricity can only be consumed or generated, not both at the same time (since there isn't a second motor). Electricity use is PASSIVE. FULL = There is one small motor and one very large motor. Each can operate independently and at different speeds & directions. Simultaneous consumption & generation of electricity is supported and frequent. This provides a tremendous amount of flexibility, allowing even the briefest of efficiency opportunities to be taken advantage of. Electricity use is PERSISTENT. It's pretty darn obvious that you-know-who simply isn't interested. He knows quite well that an "assist" hybrid can only assist. Being able to provide extended powerful electric drive simply isn't possible. The Civic-Hybrid only has a 15kW motor, which is just plain too small. The one in Prius is 50kW, and it has already been proven to fulfill that electric drive requirement by several aftermarket companies. Regulation of motor & battery heat has already been proven too. The ability to exploit the "full" hybrid design later is undeniable, making it a genuine long-term option. JOHN
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Replying to: john1701a (Oct 13, 2006 2:07 pm) So you don't understand why they are NOT THE SAME either. Ok. Here's some basics... Does either one achieve any major efficiency gains over the other? It seems to me that both the HSD and BAS/IMA type hybrids both seem to add 20% or so to MPG totals. The BAS/IMA are simpler systems and cost about 1/4th the cost of HSD. Where's the benefit? And don't tell me the benefit is in plunking down 15K to 'augment' my Prius and void my warranty. With benefits like those... eeesh. |
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Replying to: jonnycat26 (Oct 13, 2006 2:17 pm) In the future, lower battery prices will give HSD an extremely significant efficiency gain. The design has already demonstrated that. JOHN |
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Replying to: jonnycat26 (Oct 13, 2006 2:17 pm) Clearly, you simply don't care. Over and over again I state how Toyota has built a design that they themselves can take advantage of later, in the long-term. That will have absolutely no effect on the warranty, since they would be offering the option. Geez! As for the 15K, that's not honest. Several aftermarket providers have quoted 12K initially with prices dropping in the next few years. Of course, your math has issues anyway. The current price difference is a little over $2000, not $6000. And it is expected to be even less in 2009. JOHN |
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Replying to: john1701a (Oct 13, 2006 2:24 pm)
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Replying to: houdini1 (Oct 13, 2006 2:43 pm) houdini1 ? - Toyota/Honda ? housini1 ? - Toyota/Honda ? Hmmm tough choice.... ahhhhh I guess Ill have to go with the latter two. A little more experience.  but it's a close call.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 13, 2006 2:59 pm) Indeed Honda developed the cTDI for the European market share and have the short term goal of having fully 33% of Honda sales in Europe, diesel. |
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Replying to: john1701a (Oct 13, 2006 2:24 pm) That is TOTAL speculation on your part. There is no reason to believe that battery cost will decrease. What common battery is cheaper today than a year ago. Batteries will keep getting more expensive as they go to more exotic materials to make them. The only hope I can see is for some miracle storage device. Lithium Ion is all but dead IMO. It just has some bad characteristics that will keep it from ever being used in cars on a large scale. NIMH is not getting any cheaper with time. Does Toyota have a plan B when the hybrid option becomes too expensive? PS The TCH has less of a battery than the Prius. Want to guess why?
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