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Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM
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Replying to: davem2001 (Jun 08, 2005 10:58 am) Every one of them has diesel.. Not only that, just about every station that I pass has a price for diesel posted, so I'll assume they have it, too... Shifty, since they don't sell diesel cars in California, I'm not sure you are the best judge of the availability of diesel.. I'm not saying I favor or disfavor diesel, just that availability isn't an issue for the great majority of people that actually have access to new diesel cars.. As far as diesel vs. hybrid.. At least diesel comes by it's efficiencies "honestly". It is purely the result of the drivetrain.. In all other respects it is a normal car. No low rolling resistance tires, lack of sunroofs, and queasy handling necessary to achieve the improvements.. Not to mention: no dorky designs... oops.. regards, kyfdx |
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I think that even as a diesel owner, I have acknowledged the numbers. In fact I was the one who provided some of them! In a manner of speaking, as for RIGHT NOW (to address one of the issues) I really don't care much (as part of the 2.3-2.9% diesel population) for diesel and gas to have so called "parity. " Obviously, we can define parity in a few ways. But the fact of the matter, I spend close to ZERO time WAITING for diesel vs sometimes multiple lanes and cars deep for unleaded gasoline. Any indepth or quick look will probably indicate the reason why. So perhaps I should not have shared this observation. Not only do I almost never have to wait, but I almost never have to get out of anybody's way who is waiting for me to finish at the diesel pump. Dollars and cents cost benefit or penalty? Right now NONE. Even at truck stops, they dont want folks like me with the 10- max 20 gal fillup to get in the way and ire of those diesel trucks taking on 250 gal PLUS of fuel so they give us a segregated area. Hybrid? pick a numba and go to the BACK of the unleaded fuel LINE!?   The other gigs I see (side by side ownership) are: (this might not be sound bite able) If I drive my Honda like a Honda, I get maybe 36-41 mpg. (seems to be really good by the way, for a gasser) If I drive my VW TDI Jetta like a Honda(as in above), I get more like 55-62 mpg. If I drive my Honda like I do my Jetta on longer hauls I get between 32-35 (which is still pretty good) If I drive my VW Jetta TDI like a Jetta TDI, (as it was meant to be driven) I get 45-48 mpg! WOO HOO! |
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Well California is a HUGE automobile market so the availability of diesel fuel here does matter in the overall equation I think. I don't care WHERE you live----if you pull into service stations randomly you are going to find stations that don't have diesel. That's all I'm saying. It would be the same experience for you hi-test gasoline users, if, say, only one out of three stations had premium fuel. I had the same problem finding diesel in Nevada and Colorado....you have to do the "green pump driveby" or I got in the habit of only looking at the BOTTOM of the gas price signs (You can tell I've done this before). Of course, once you KNOW where your stations are locally, you don't feel like you have a problem anymore. I installed a long range gas tank for this very problem while travelling. (32 gallons X 26 mpg!!) Then of course I had the little plastic glovey, and the paper towels for the soles of my feet. Why can't diesel owners AIM properly? I think the oil spills are due to the fact that diesel nozzles in California don't have those bellows devices to capture fumes. It's easier to overfill your tank with a diesel nozzle and cause a "gush". A friend of mine has a TDI. It's way more fun to drive than a Prius, so I'd consider a used one. He's had good luck engine-wise--his problems haven't been with the diesel, just the rest of the car like his windows falling down into the door and the usual German electrical glitchery. |
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Shifty, you bring up another good point. Seems like when someone buys a hybrid it is almost like an unwritten rule and holy grail quest that one has to drive the car to get the most MPH: in keeping the hybrid name unbesmirched I also would agree the TDI is WAY more fun to drive than the Prius. (nothing perjorative here just my personal opinion) ..." I had the same problem finding diesel in Nevada and Colorado....you have to do the "green pump driveby" or I got in the habit of only looking at the BOTTOM of the gas price signs (You can tell I've done this before). "... We must travel in way different places in NV and CO. North Tahoe, South Tahoe, NV, NO PROBLEM at all! Reno/Sparks, NV, KNOWN truck stop NIRVANAs!! To me availability was more like what you envision for diesel. Las Vegas NV. NO PROBLEM. Diesel is available 3 blocks from where I usually stay. Diesel is also available ON THE STRIP!!! It is available on streets perpendicular to the STRIP. Henderson, etc. same thing. Durango CO to name one, Biodiesel and #2 diesel on the main drag to downtown!? Pagosa Springs etc etc. Biodiesel, USLD, #2, etc etc. |
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| I'm not quite sure why you keep harping on diesel availability in California. Your government there precludes new diesel sales, thus severely limiting the demand for diesel pumps at "regular" (non truck) gas stations. Not sure how you can complain about the lack of diesel pumps when your state is artificially controlling the market by disallowing new diesel sales. Come to the midwest(visit though, don't stay, it is pretty boring) where I currently live and you will never hurt for a diesel pump. They are absolutely everywhere, with the "regular pumps" and they're just as clean/dirty as the gas pump handles 8 inches away from them. | |
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Replying to: seminole_kev (Jun 08, 2005 12:02 pm)  All I'm saying is something pretty simple---if you randomly drive into any service station anywhere in the country that's unfamiliar to you, not every station you drive into will have diesel fuel. You may have to pass a few up. I brought that up just in a breezy way to list why diesels don't have parity with gas cars. It was just one of a number of factors and these factors admittedly have different weight and levels of seriousness. Another lack of parity lies within the scarcity of good diesel mechanics for diesel CARS, for instance. Not every repair shop you go into will work on diesels either. Since diesel cars are a real tiny piece of the market in America, and have never been popular here, one would not expect a supporting infrastructure equal to gasoline cars. Kinda makes sense, doesn't it?  Now if you REALLY want to crank me up, let's talk about how hybrid and diesel car owners are "environmentalists". 
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Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Jun 08, 2005 1:24 pm) As for the crank up, it is common knowledge that hybrids can not per se lessen the dependence on FOREIGN oil. Yet diesel can be literally home grown (DOMESTIC) from soy beans, reclaimed from dumps, etc. It has been the regulatory agencies etc that have delayed the USLD from hitting the more common market. In fact, 5 states have banned new model salves starting in 2004 which will probably continue to at least 2007. So in fact, they have guaranteed the use of 500 PPM higher sulfur fuel . the 5 CARB states have to their credit have let the more common app 140 ppm sulfur diesel fuel in their states. But really I don't have anything against the new 15 ppm low sulfur fuel. The other is USLD fuel has been available but at a premium.
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Replying to: ruking1 (Jun 08, 2005 1:57 pm) In one move, you would be taking product now that often composts and gets in the water tables and other pollutes the ground, you would be making indigenous fuel, and you would be making cleaner diesel. Talk about win, win, win. |
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| This kind of stuff would never hit the hit parade if we all just bought into the continued use of unleaded gas. !!?? | |
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Well I think the idea of renewable fuels is much sounder environmentally than the concept of gasoline powered hybrids, the latter being at the moment not much more than the "redefinition of the status quo" rather than actually compelling the user to DO anything that approaches a sacrifice or a change in lifestyle. You're still burning a fossil fuel (ironically, old plants) which is not renewable. Corn stalks are nice, but of course you have to plant it, harvest it, process it, ship it--all that takes energy. What makes it interesting is the renewable part---you can grow more. America as you know uses about 25% of the world's energy and owns 3% of it. This can't be balanced out by conservation of existing types of fuel, not even if everyone in the USA owned a Prius. Not even close. Not even a Prius getting double the mileage it gets now. So forget that as a "solution" to the energy problem as long as it burns fossil fuel.
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