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Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 7:55 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Yeah, why would one characterize folks as knocking the Toyota Prius? I think if folks are willing to pay a premium (in my case app 8,000 MORE ) then its their nickel!!?? But I think for most practical purposes MPG IS the reason for the shift!? Some would cite the decrease in emissions, but try getting a statistically significant reading in a Boston, MA rush hour scenario and it almost fads into total insignificance. |
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Replying to: davem2001 (Jun 08, 2005 6:40 am) Let me leap out with a commonly known statistic. The average yearly mileage is between 12,000-15,000 miles. Since the hybrid has a cinderella/cinderfella mileage frame of 150,000 miles for likely battery replacement this can mean 10-13 years. So one real question; can the batteries really last that long and or will it be warranted for that time? I read the Prius takes 20 batteries at 149 per or 2980. Compared to a gasser , this difference probably makes almost no "economic" sense. Some figures : 2004 Honda, 36-40 mpg, 12,500 vs Toyota Prius, 45-48 mpg, 26,000. My preference in the above case would be to get two Honda's or use the 13,500 difference to buy 6,054 gals of fuel (2.23 per gal) or 217,937 to 242,160 miles worth. TDI or diesel over a like gasser really makes sense over 20,000 miles per year. Between 12,000 and 15,000 miles it would be like a Prius purchase, discretionary at best.
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Replying to: dixonr (Jun 08, 2005 5:09 am) The Prius is a hit. I would not bet my last paycheck that the Toyota upper management is thrilled. What car did it take the place of. If it was an SUV purchase Toyota lost a bunch of money. If that person was going to buy a Camry or Corolla Toyota lost money. If they were going to buy from another company it was good for Toyota. As far as the hybrid Camry being a big hit. The other 5 hybrids are far from the popular Prius. They are being discounted after only a few months on the lot. The Honda dealer I talked to does not even stock the HCH or Insight. He had an HAH on the lot 10 days when I was there and was surprised that it did not sell. This is in hybrid country CA. Also to compare the TDI to a Toyota Prius is hardly a fair comparison. VW does not sell like Toyota. The biggest factor is CA does not allow the TDI. My local VW dealer could and did sell every TDI he was allowed up until January 2004. That CARB ruling has nearly killed his VW business. |
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I would agree, Toyota is probably still losing money on the sales of the Prius. Also it is not too bright to KBAL or canabalize your own sales. This is especially true if you were going to purchase say a very high profit margin Toyota SUV. However, I think the overall issue as Gagrice alludes is that the marketing demographics are almost becoming like insurance actuarial data. |
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Replying to: ruking1 (Jun 08, 2005 8:09 am) I can just hear the Toyota technician at the 115,000 mile checkup: "Yes, we know something is wrong; the computer is reporting battery system trouble codes. It could be one or more of your 20 batteries, we'll have to check them all. And all the wiring and circuits. We'll probably check the relays, etc. too... You're probably looking at 6-8 hours of labor, and figure between $200 and $600 for parts, for a ballpark of $1500..." |
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My whole point was only to suggest that neither diesel cars nor hybrids have any demonstrable, significant advantage over a 2005 gasoline engine compact car, right here, right now, not in fuel mileage, not in emissions, not in MSRP, not in utility. The ONLY advantage I could list is RANGE, by perhaps 10-20%. As for availability of fuel, unless there was JUST AS many diesel pumps as gas pumps (which there aren't) in the world, we'd have to say that the availability is not at parity with gasoline. SO WHAT DO DIESELS AND HYBRIDS HAVE TO DO if they don't want to be minor players in the marketplace? 1. They have to beat a gas car's MPG significantly, given equal size and weight. 5-6 mpg better isn't going to cut it. 2. They have to make economic sense vis a vis a gas car...the numbers have to justify the cost over that of a gas car. (We presume here that diesels and hybrids currently cost more to buy than an equivalent gas car and that you can't buy under $20K hybrids or diesels at the moment anyway). 3. Diesel fuel needs to be cheaper and cleaner 4. They have to demonstrate long term reliability and equivalent long term maintenance costs. (especially hybrids---VW diesels are...well...built by VW, and that's a problem right there, regardless of engine). 5. They have to perform at gas car levels, for equal size and weight. I see #3 and #5 coming up quickly, but it's going to be years for the rest, and maybe never. I would add, more subjectively, that a Prius is not terribly pleasant to drive. It needs a lot of work in that department. Right now, it feels like "health food" felt when we first ate it years ago. |
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As for availability of fuel, unless there was JUST AS many diesel pumps as gas pumps (which there aren't) in the world, we'd have to say that the availability is not at parity with gasoline. When I bring this up, hard-core diesel "fans" will always say something like - "you can always go to a truck stop" or "I never have a problem finding fuel"...but the point still remains, I can get gasoline anywhere. I don't have to make any special effort. Maybe someday diesel will be available everywhere you buy gasoline. Until it is, that is a disadvantage of buying a diesel. I definitely agree with Shifty, right now IMO, neither a hybrid or a diesel offer enough to compell me to buy one over a "conventional" car.
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Replying to: davem2001 (Jun 08, 2005 11:58 am) Every one of them has diesel.. Not only that, just about every station that I pass has a price for diesel posted, so I'll assume they have it, too... Shifty, since they don't sell diesel cars in California, I'm not sure you are the best judge of the availability of diesel.. I'm not saying I favor or disfavor diesel, just that availability isn't an issue for the great majority of people that actually have access to new diesel cars.. As far as diesel vs. hybrid.. At least diesel comes by it's efficiencies "honestly". It is purely the result of the drivetrain.. In all other respects it is a normal car. No low rolling resistance tires, lack of sunroofs, and queasy handling necessary to achieve the improvements.. Not to mention: no dorky designs... oops.. regards, kyfdx |
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I think that even as a diesel owner, I have acknowledged the numbers. In fact I was the one who provided some of them! In a manner of speaking, as for RIGHT NOW (to address one of the issues) I really don't care much (as part of the 2.3-2.9% diesel population) for diesel and gas to have so called "parity. " Obviously, we can define parity in a few ways. But the fact of the matter, I spend close to ZERO time WAITING for diesel vs sometimes multiple lanes and cars deep for unleaded gasoline. Any indepth or quick look will probably indicate the reason why. So perhaps I should not have shared this observation. Not only do I almost never have to wait, but I almost never have to get out of anybody's way who is waiting for me to finish at the diesel pump. Dollars and cents cost benefit or penalty? Right now NONE. Even at truck stops, they dont want folks like me with the 10- max 20 gal fillup to get in the way and ire of those diesel trucks taking on 250 gal PLUS of fuel so they give us a segregated area. Hybrid? pick a numba and go to the BACK of the unleaded fuel LINE!?   The other gigs I see (side by side ownership) are: (this might not be sound bite able) If I drive my Honda like a Honda, I get maybe 36-41 mpg. (seems to be really good by the way, for a gasser) If I drive my VW TDI Jetta like a Honda(as in above), I get more like 55-62 mpg. If I drive my Honda like I do my Jetta on longer hauls I get between 32-35 (which is still pretty good) If I drive my VW Jetta TDI like a Jetta TDI, (as it was meant to be driven) I get 45-48 mpg! WOO HOO! |
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Well California is a HUGE automobile market so the availability of diesel fuel here does matter in the overall equation I think. I don't care WHERE you live----if you pull into service stations randomly you are going to find stations that don't have diesel. That's all I'm saying. It would be the same experience for you hi-test gasoline users, if, say, only one out of three stations had premium fuel. I had the same problem finding diesel in Nevada and Colorado....you have to do the "green pump driveby" or I got in the habit of only looking at the BOTTOM of the gas price signs (You can tell I've done this before). Of course, once you KNOW where your stations are locally, you don't feel like you have a problem anymore. I installed a long range gas tank for this very problem while travelling. (32 gallons X 26 mpg!!) Then of course I had the little plastic glovey, and the paper towels for the soles of my feet. Why can't diesel owners AIM properly? I think the oil spills are due to the fact that diesel nozzles in California don't have those bellows devices to capture fumes. It's easier to overfill your tank with a diesel nozzle and cause a "gush". A friend of mine has a TDI. It's way more fun to drive than a Prius, so I'd consider a used one. He's had good luck engine-wise--his problems haven't been with the diesel, just the rest of the car like his windows falling down into the door and the usual German electrical glitchery. |
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