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Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM
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Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Jun 07, 2005 4:40 pm)  Given the figures of 1 in 4 fuel stations having diesel might sound like a problem,. In fact just because a unleaded gas station is close or even farther from you does not necessarily mean one will shop at it. So for example I have one #2 diesel station 2 miles R/T. But that does not mean it is my only or even most favored place to fuel. So in that sense the stations really do an interesting marketing game. So sometimes I go to one station for diesel, another for regular and another for 91 Octane. I think most folks probably do this some times or even routinely. I also would agree that from the consumer's point of view, more stations that carry diesel, the better. Not to plug Shell,but they seem to be aggressively putting in diesel pumps. While on the road, I tend to favor truck stops. This weekend I went down Highway 5 to Bakersfield and actually could have come back to the San Jose area on one tank. ( R/T a min of 520 miles) However the (lower) prices of truck stop fuel combined with a nature break, beckon me to refuel. Price was 2.28. With low gas prices of 2.23 in the San Jose area, this is a period where there was not a lot of difference in price. The bad news on the Marin side is: don't look for new diesel pumps anytime soon.  With the price of real estate sky high and the new larger footprint required for a new concept fuel station, I am guessing the overhead doesn't pencil out.
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 06, 2005 10:29 am) P.S. I do like the TDI and think as high milage vehicles both are well above the pack. 
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Where I live, diesel is harder to find and more expensive than gasoline. I'm also not convinced of the economics of a hybrid - by the time you've recouped your initial investment thru fuel savings, you're almost due for an expensive new battery. I'd stick with a conventional gasoline engine for now. I don't see a strong enough advantage for either one (diesel or hybrid) to make me want to get one at this point.
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Yeah, why would one characterize folks as knocking the Toyota Prius? I think if folks are willing to pay a premium (in my case app 8,000 MORE ) then its their nickel!!?? But I think for most practical purposes MPG IS the reason for the shift!? Some would cite the decrease in emissions, but try getting a statistically significant reading in a Boston, MA rush hour scenario and it almost fads into total insignificance. |
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Replying to: davem2001 (Jun 08, 2005 5:40 am) Let me leap out with a commonly known statistic. The average yearly mileage is between 12,000-15,000 miles. Since the hybrid has a cinderella/cinderfella mileage frame of 150,000 miles for likely battery replacement this can mean 10-13 years. So one real question; can the batteries really last that long and or will it be warranted for that time? I read the Prius takes 20 batteries at 149 per or 2980. Compared to a gasser , this difference probably makes almost no "economic" sense. Some figures : 2004 Honda, 36-40 mpg, 12,500 vs Toyota Prius, 45-48 mpg, 26,000. My preference in the above case would be to get two Honda's or use the 13,500 difference to buy 6,054 gals of fuel (2.23 per gal) or 217,937 to 242,160 miles worth. TDI or diesel over a like gasser really makes sense over 20,000 miles per year. Between 12,000 and 15,000 miles it would be like a Prius purchase, discretionary at best.
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Replying to: dixonr (Jun 08, 2005 4:09 am) The Prius is a hit. I would not bet my last paycheck that the Toyota upper management is thrilled. What car did it take the place of. If it was an SUV purchase Toyota lost a bunch of money. If that person was going to buy a Camry or Corolla Toyota lost money. If they were going to buy from another company it was good for Toyota. As far as the hybrid Camry being a big hit. The other 5 hybrids are far from the popular Prius. They are being discounted after only a few months on the lot. The Honda dealer I talked to does not even stock the HCH or Insight. He had an HAH on the lot 10 days when I was there and was surprised that it did not sell. This is in hybrid country CA. Also to compare the TDI to a Toyota Prius is hardly a fair comparison. VW does not sell like Toyota. The biggest factor is CA does not allow the TDI. My local VW dealer could and did sell every TDI he was allowed up until January 2004. That CARB ruling has nearly killed his VW business. |
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I would agree, Toyota is probably still losing money on the sales of the Prius. Also it is not too bright to KBAL or canabalize your own sales. This is especially true if you were going to purchase say a very high profit margin Toyota SUV. However, I think the overall issue as Gagrice alludes is that the marketing demographics are almost becoming like insurance actuarial data. |
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Replying to: ruking1 (Jun 08, 2005 7:09 am) I can just hear the Toyota technician at the 115,000 mile checkup: "Yes, we know something is wrong; the computer is reporting battery system trouble codes. It could be one or more of your 20 batteries, we'll have to check them all. And all the wiring and circuits. We'll probably check the relays, etc. too... You're probably looking at 6-8 hours of labor, and figure between $200 and $600 for parts, for a ballpark of $1500..." |
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My whole point was only to suggest that neither diesel cars nor hybrids have any demonstrable, significant advantage over a 2005 gasoline engine compact car, right here, right now, not in fuel mileage, not in emissions, not in MSRP, not in utility. The ONLY advantage I could list is RANGE, by perhaps 10-20%. As for availability of fuel, unless there was JUST AS many diesel pumps as gas pumps (which there aren't) in the world, we'd have to say that the availability is not at parity with gasoline. SO WHAT DO DIESELS AND HYBRIDS HAVE TO DO if they don't want to be minor players in the marketplace? 1. They have to beat a gas car's MPG significantly, given equal size and weight. 5-6 mpg better isn't going to cut it. 2. They have to make economic sense vis a vis a gas car...the numbers have to justify the cost over that of a gas car. (We presume here that diesels and hybrids currently cost more to buy than an equivalent gas car and that you can't buy under $20K hybrids or diesels at the moment anyway). 3. Diesel fuel needs to be cheaper and cleaner 4. They have to demonstrate long term reliability and equivalent long term maintenance costs. (especially hybrids---VW diesels are...well...built by VW, and that's a problem right there, regardless of engine). 5. They have to perform at gas car levels, for equal size and weight. I see #3 and #5 coming up quickly, but it's going to be years for the rest, and maybe never. I would add, more subjectively, that a Prius is not terribly pleasant to drive. It needs a lot of work in that department. Right now, it feels like "health food" felt when we first ate it years ago. |
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As for availability of fuel, unless there was JUST AS many diesel pumps as gas pumps (which there aren't) in the world, we'd have to say that the availability is not at parity with gasoline. When I bring this up, hard-core diesel "fans" will always say something like - "you can always go to a truck stop" or "I never have a problem finding fuel"...but the point still remains, I can get gasoline anywhere. I don't have to make any special effort. Maybe someday diesel will be available everywhere you buy gasoline. Until it is, that is a disadvantage of buying a diesel. I definitely agree with Shifty, right now IMO, neither a hybrid or a diesel offer enough to compell me to buy one over a "conventional" car.
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