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Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? - READ ONLY

5196 messages,  Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM

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What is this discussion about? Alternative Fuels, Biodiesel, Hybrid Cars


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#2962 of 5196
MB Diesel beats the Hybrid RX400 in MPG by stevedebi
Mar 21, 2006 (9:10 am)
Just stumbled across this interesting article:
 
"A diesel Mercedes-Benz ML 320 CDI consumed nearly 11percent less fuel than the hybrid Lexus RX400h in a 3210-mile coast-to-coast economy run across the US. The endurance test, carried out by German magazine Auto Bild, started in New York and ended in San Francisco, with the M-Class returning an average of 31.04mpg and the Lexus just 27.69mpg, despite being 13bhp less powerful and having less torque (pulling power)."
 
http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=12868&ref=archive
#2963 of 5196
Re: MB Diesel beats the Hybrid RX400 in MPG [stevedebi] by kdhspyder
Mar 21, 2006 (9:16 am)

Replying to: stevedebi (Mar 21, 2006 9:10 am)

Without some revolutionary breakthroughs in current hybrid technology it does seem that the most fuel efficient system for larger vehicles is the diesel or possibly diesel/hybrid option at least in the intermediate term.
 
The results of the Auto Bild test seem reasonable given current technology.
#2964 of 5196
Re: Hybrid SUVs Slow to Leave Dealership Lots [jkinzel] by ruking1
Mar 21, 2006 (9:28 am)

Replying to: jkinzel (Mar 21, 2006 8:47 am)

..."Hybrid cars such as the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic remain extremely popular and in short supply,"...
 
Chicken: Egg? Is the so called "popularity" due to the short supply? I am SWAGGING we are seeing in the finely crafted "hybrid full court press". RUNNING out of gas! (pun thrown in free! )
 
If the logic on this board is any indication hybrids advocates say the hybrids are "THE answer" for those GAS GUZZLING SUV's. One set of relatives just bought a Toyota Highlander hybrid. It is EPA rated at 31/27 mpg. (vs 18/24 gasser only) For their sake, I would hope they don't experience the same gig as some Prius owners (much less mpg than EPA ratings) According to Edmunds.com there is app a $7,000 premium over the gasser only TH. But they live in Marin, CA so the HYBRID cachet there is "PRICELESS"
 
Me? A turbo diesel SUV that gets 25/30 mpg and above would lessen the want/need for a lot of vehicles.
#2965 of 5196
Re: Hybrid SUVs Slow to Leave Dealership Lots [ruking1] by jkinzel
Mar 21, 2006 (9:39 am)

Replying to: ruking1 (Mar 21, 2006 9:28 am)

If the logic on this board is any indication hybrids advocates say the hybrids are "THE answer" for those GAS GUZZLING SUV's.
 
I have not done a lot of homework in the hybrid SUV area, but I don't think any can touch the mileage of the Jeep Liberty diesel. Many report 26-30+ mpg hiway.
#2966 of 5196
Re: Hybrid SUVs Slow to Leave Dealership Lots [ruking1] by kdhspyder
Mar 21, 2006 (9:41 am)

Replying to: ruking1 (Mar 21, 2006 9:28 am)

I think what we are seening now is the clear-sighted reaction of a smart buying public. Clearly the two best designed and most capable hybrids are the Prius and the HCH. They should continue to sell well.
 
As noted elsewhere:
The Insight never was intended for mass usage.
HAH and HH are incorrectly marketed as V8's into a market base that favors economy over power. Both should die.
The 400h is correctly placed where it belongs but it will always be a small market as most luxury vehicles are.
Ditto the new GS450h.
The FEH is beset with being in the Ford family and until that entire ship is righted it will suffer. It is also one generation behind the Toyota versions.
 
Now lets see how the next round plays out with:
the TCH
the Hybrid Altima ( Nissan TCH )
the new Hyundai's
the new Ford Hybrid auto's
 
the hybrid Sienna ( V6 +HSD or 4c +HSD question again )
the new HH due out at the end of this year. ( same ? as the Sienna )
 
a hybrid Corolla ( next year also? )
 
If the logic on this board is any indication hybrids advocates say the hybrids are "THE answer" for those GAS GUZZLING SUV's.
 
see my post just above yours... the big rigs probably all belong as diesels given the present technology.
#2967 of 5196
Re: the 'Diesel' premium [kdhspyder] by moparbad
Mar 21, 2006 (9:52 am)

Replying to: kdhspyder (Mar 21, 2006 8:21 am)

Europe currently has ULSD and the diesel vehicles sold there require no modifications to use ULSD in USA and Canada once it becomes mandatory in the Fall of 2006.
 
In order to investigate the "Diesel Premium" for ULSD diesel vehicles, I will use Toyota vehicles sold in UK as an example.
 
Yaris
1.3 VVT-i 87 hp gasoline
1.4 D-4D 90 hp diesel $1049 dollars increase the diesel option (a 1.09% increase in cost)
 
Corolla
1.4 VVT-i 96 hp gasoline
1.4 D-4D 90 hp diesel $1039 increase for the diesel option
(a 1.1% increase in cost)
 
Avensis (model similar to North American Camry)
1.8 VVT-i 129 hp gasoline
2.0 D-4D 116 hp diesel $647 increase in for the diesel option (1.05% increase in cost)
 
Same trim and same transmission was used, no tricks to attempt to deceive, and no assumptions needed as these are all current models with actual MSRP prices.
 
1.1% is the largest cost difference, and the nothing more than $1100 for "Diesel Premium".
 
Something smells rotten with the 8% figure quoted in the Detroit News article. All of the Toyota engines gas and diesel are Euro IV compliant and all of the diesels emit LESS C02 than the comparable gasoline version. And all of the diesels are already doing this on ULSD!
 
If the domestic manufacturers can not introduce diesel vehicles at a 1.1% and $1100 or less cost increase, our only hope is for Toyota and Honda to introduce diesels in North America.
#2968 of 5196
Re: Hybrid SUVs Slow to Leave Dealership Lots [kdhspyder] by ruking1
Mar 21, 2006 (9:54 am)

Replying to: kdhspyder (Mar 21, 2006 9:41 am)

..."the big rigs probably all belong as diesels given the present technology."...
 
I have (unless otherwiese foot noted) been always talking about the passenger vehicle fleet and NOT big rigs.
#2969 of 5196
Is Toyota the Answer to the fuelish wasting of fuel? by moparbad
Mar 21, 2006 (10:16 am)
Fuel consumption mpg Urban, Extra-Urban, Combined and CO2 emissions of Toyota UK vehicles. Please note the figures are Impirical gallon and not converted. C02 g/km
 
Aygo 1.4 diesel
Urban 53.3 Extra-Urban 83.1 Combined 68.9 C02 109
 
Prius 1.5 VVT-i Hybrid
Urban 56.5 Extra-Urban 67.3 Combined 65.7 C02 104
 
Yaris 1.4 D-4D
Urban 52.3 Extra-Urban 70.6 Combined 62.8 CO2 119
 
Yaris 1.3 VVT-i
Urban 39.2 Extra-Urban 53.3 Combined 47.1 CO2 141
 
Corolla 1.4 D-4D
Urban 48.7 Extra-Urban 65.7 Combined 58.9 CO2 128
 
Corolla 1.4 VVT-i
Urban 33.6 Extra-Urban 49.6 Combined 42.2 CO2 159
 
Avensis 2.0 D4-D
Urban 37.7 Extra-Urban 57.6 Combined 48.7 CO2 155
 
Avensis 1.8 VVT-i
Urban 30.1 Extra-Urban 48.7 Combined 39.2 CO2 171
 
Diesel is clearly the most cost effective technology to reduce fuel consumption.
 
Prius Hybrid is the overall most effective technology to reduce fuel consumption and emissions if cost is not a factor.
 
Corolla Diesel 5 door MSRP x 132% = Prius MSRP.
 
Are you willing to pay a 32% increased cost for an 11% increase in mileage?
#2970 of 5196
Re: Hybrid SUVs Slow to Leave Dealership Lots [ruking1] by kdhspyder
Mar 21, 2006 (10:20 am)

Replying to: ruking1 (Mar 21, 2006 9:54 am)

I was responding to jkinzel's post following yours.
 
you wrote:
If the logic on this board is any indication hybrids advocates say the hybrids are "THE answer" for those GAS GUZZLING SUV's
 
I responded:
the big rigs probably all belong as diesels given the present technology.
#2971 of 5196
Re: Is Toyota the Answer to the fuelish wasting of fuel? [moparbad] by kdhspyder
Mar 21, 2006 (10:34 am)

Replying to: moparbad (Mar 21, 2006 10:16 am)

As in all the comparo's here neither the Corolla nor the Avensis is the exact model for comparison purposes. Just as here the Prius is very precisely placed between the two. It's very astute. You do have to compare the three together to get the full picture because as in my case the Corolla/Civic and all other's of that size are immediately ruled out as being too small, not as comfortable and not having enough features. These were criteria No's 1, 2 and 3 in my decision with driving characteristics, superior FE and total price being No's 4,5 & 6.
 
If the vehicle is too small or uncomfortable then it's out of the comparo, it doesnt matter what the price is.

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