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Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: winter2 (Mar 20, 2006 7:57 am) While I understand and actually agree with the point you are making, of which the above is a part, the increase in new cars/trucks (year to year) is really the cost of "SEX". This is in addition to the fact the auto oems want to keep up with the cost of inflation. Generally year to year presents no radical design changes. This would be in stark contrast with say the 2006 Honda Civic vs the 2005 Honda Civic. (next generation) So what you are saying about the "costs" would be true if they were trying to jump one category, i.e., have to meet more stringent requirements. I would make this swag and please note I am no where near an emissions guru, but I would dare say the emissions for the Prius it NOT radically different from the Corolla. However since the Prius engine is smaller and combine with they hybrid action that makes the gasser engine run app 20% less, that is probably enough to let the Prius get the numbers it does.
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Replying to: winter2 (Mar 20, 2006 7:57 am) The safety and emissions is probably 35% of the cost of a vehicle. |
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Replying to: ruking1 (Mar 20, 2006 8:08 am) Many years ago VW put an autostop feature on their diesels. It helped with fuel economy and probably with emissions too. If an autostop feature were put on every vehicle including diesels, fuel economy would improve as well as emissions. As to the emission systems of a Corolla being similar to the Prius, you are probably right. The combustion cycle on the Prius is different and a little cleaner. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 20, 2006 8:35 am) On my CRD, the EGR is watercooled and has some electronic controls applied to it. I am sure it costs several hundred dollars as a part sans labor to install it. Talking about EGR valves, my wife's 1998 Chrysler does not have one.
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Perhaps this might be hard to graphically visualize but CAFE standards might indeed be instrumental in keeping OUT higher mileage vehicles like the VW TDI and Honda cTDI's.: economy of scale and cost per unit. Any current upgrade to say a Corolla/Civic/whatever type vehicle can be literally spread over hundreds of thousands ie multiples of 100,000) of vehicles. And the cost per unit is FAR less VW and Honda TDI's can barely get traction say over 10,000 vehicles. Now I can really not fault the range of 36-41 mpg I get in the Honda Civic. By most measures I should count my blessings. However since I also have real world experiences with the TDI or more to the point 44-62 mpg AND having a HOOT doing it, I do wonder out loud!  
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Replying to: winter2 (Mar 20, 2006 8:51 am) Unless it's your only option, I would never buy a part like a converter from the dealer. The mark-up is absolutely huge.
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Replying to: w9cw (Mar 20, 2006 11:38 am) Again a very well known but probably unfactored is the 150,000 mile guarantee of the Prius CC vs how ever long for the Walker Muffler one? |
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Replying to: w9cw (Mar 20, 2006 11:38 am) When I had to replace the EGR valve on my Dodge truck, the dealer was $30 less than several after market vendors. Not always the case though. I have also found that using dealer PCVs and thermostats worked better than aftermarket vendor parts. |
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Now it's fair to do a parallel comparison of both the 'hybrid' premium and the 'diesel' premium for auto since costs are starting to become known with the advent of ULSD. Detroit News article http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060320/AUTO01/603200333/1148- - - Obviously small autos won't have $5000+ increases in the cost of diesel engines. However using the figure stated in the article of ~ 8% increase on top of an already existing premium of $1000 over a gasser, one could construct the following model. 1.5L Gasser engine ( least efficient Baseline ) Est Cost $4000 ( ? better estimates ) Fuel Cost: $1135 ..455 gal/yr ( 15K  33 mpg $2.50/g) 5 year 'system' cost: $9675 1.5L Diesel engine Estimated Cost: $4000 'Current' diesel prem: $1000 ULDS premium = 8%: $400 Fuel Cost: $977 ..349 gal/yr ( 15K 43 mpg $2.80/g ( current $2.70 + 0.10 for ULSD ) 5 year 'system' cost: $10,285 1.5L Hybrid engine Estimated Cost: $4000 'Current' hybrid prem: $3000 Fuel Cost: $783 ..313 gal/yr ( 15K 48 mpg $2.50/g ) 5 year 'system' cost: $10,915 The foregoing is based on the following assumptions ( subject to corrections ): The cost of a basic small car engine remains constant at about $4000. Fuel prices stay stable $2.50 /g ( see below ). Diesel premiums and hybrid premiums are real costs and not marketing upcharges; e.g. MB is not charging a ULSD premium according to the DetNews and Toyota says that they are aiming at a prem of $1000. There will be 100% reliability on all systems with no special maintenance. ULSD remains at a 10% permium over unleaded. No improvements will be made in engine/hybrid fuel usage technology. Another scenario: Due to increasing world demand, unstable situaitons and a strategy of producers to increase the price of their product, the price of fuel increases by $0.50/gal annually for the next 5 years. The 5 year total 'system' costs would be: ( Gasser - Diesel - Hybrid ) 2006 - $2.50 /gal - $9675 - $10,285 - $10910 2007 - $3.00 /gal - $10,825 - $11,160 - $11,695 2008 - $3.50 /gal - $11,965 - $11,735 - $12,480 2009 - $4.00 /gal - $13,100 - $13,080 - $13,260 2010 - $4.50 /gal - $14,240 - $14,040 - $14,045 However 'Resource usage' for these 5 years would be: Gasser - 2275 gal / veh - baseline Diesel - 1745 gal / veh ~ 23% savings Hybrid - 1565 gal / veh ~ 31% savings Using a production of 8 Million autos annually, beginning this year reduce the gassers by 500,000 annually and increase the diesels/hybrids at the same rate. 2005 8.0 Million vs 200,000 2006 7.5 Million vs 700,000 2007 6.0 Million vs 1.2 Million 2008 5.5 Million vs 1.7 Million 2009 5.0 Million vs 2.2 Million 2010 4.5 Million vs 2.7 Million The 'resource' savings become enormous. Air quality improvement can also be calculated similarly. Now convert all or most trucks/SUV's over to diesel or some advanced diesel/hybrid combo.
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Hybrid cars such as the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic remain extremely popular and in short supply, but hybrid SUVs such as the Lexus RX 400h and even sedan hybrids such as the Honda Accord are staying on the lots longer than expected. Ron Cogan, publisher of Green Car Journal, believes the issue is that consumers have not yet caught on to bigger hybrids. http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/03/21/001604.html
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