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Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: winter2 (Mar 16, 2006 6:51 am) Constructive means: "not personal". Commentary about a person isn't the slightest bit helpful. Instead of attempting to discredit, stick to the facts. And try being objective. FACT #1 - Clean Emissions means the vehicle achieves a rating of at least SULEV. Percentage of improvement is not appropriate, since that is only a relative measure. The rating is a precise ppm quantity, and using that is the truly objective approach. FACT #2 - Stop & Slow traffic is a common problem a majority of the population has to deal with. So MPG data must include this requirement. The exclusion of that is an obvious attempt to mislead. It must be included to be objective. FACT #3 - Automatic Transmissions are what over 90 percent of the drivers in the United States have purchased. That makes the “not required to shift” type the undeniable preferred choice. Yet the discussions here quote MPG values from the Manual Transmission instead but fail to point the efficiency difference out. That is not objective, it is deceptive. FACT #4 - Full Hybrid technology can be implemented in a very wide range of vehicle types using a variety of engine & motor sizes. The flexibility of configuration is astonishing; however, responses dismiss this inferring that isn’t actually possible. But it is, and will be expanded upon as the years progress. Being objective means not ignoring that. JOHN
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Replying to: john1701a (Mar 16, 2006 2:52 pm) The only way you can truly save fossil fuel even with a Prius is to park it and not drive it.
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 16, 2006 4:28 pm) And the only attempt to be objective claims that I'm "incapable of compromise". That's clearly not correct. I accept SULEV, it's a compromise. PZEV is cleaner (since it also requires significantly reduced evaporative emissions). No compromising means that I'd insist on PZEV (especially since Prius & Camry-Hybrid have that rating). But I don't. You have been proven wrong. Now stop with the personal attacks. JOHN
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Replying to: john1701a (Mar 16, 2006 7:57 pm) You can insist all you want. PZEV is a CARB rating. Without the designer gas sold in the CARB states you will not get that rating. As it is currently sold in 45 states the Prius is BIN 3 with an 8 rating. Prius is not the cleanest gas car available in your area. As I have already pointed out. There are several cars that rate cleaner in the 45 non CARB states. Cleaner than any of the hybrids except the Honda Civic Hybrid. So I apologize you have accepted a compromise by buying the less than SULEV II Prius. Automobiles receiving a Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) credit have met the Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) tailpipe standard which is 90% cleaner than the average new 2003 automobile. In addition, they have near-zero evaporative emissions and their emission control equipment has a 15-year/150,000 mile warranty http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ccbg/atpzev.htm Check out PZEV. It is SULEV with a 15yr 150k Mile warranty. http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/detailedchart.pdf
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they are on the pole at Sebring. The number 1 & 2 spot are Audi TDIs. Nothing like diesel to make you go fast.... Doing there part not to waste so much fuel in the racing sport. Sebring diesel
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 16, 2006 10:11 pm) First, since all 50 states now required to sell that "designer" gas, known as LOW-SULFUR, that claim is meaningless. The nationwide mandate took effect January 1, 2006. Second, it doesn't really matter anyway. The purpose of the reduced sulfur level was to ensure emission ratings would be retained for their entire required duration. They will initially achieve their clean rating even with really dirty gas. SULEV = 120,000 miles PZEV = 150,000 miles By the way, that is yet another compromise I have accepted. I would very much like that additional 30,000 miles. But I chose to accept the lesser distance instead. JOHN
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 16, 2006 10:28 pm) That's not true. The newest hybrid from Lexus, GS450h launched yesterday in Japan, can go 0-62 MPH in just 5.6 seconds. JOHN
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Replying to: john1701a (Mar 17, 2006 5:40 am) It is a fast hybrid from the reviews I have read. It will get some diesel competition later this year. We shall see how it matches up to the Bluetec CDIs from Mercedes. If it gets mid to high 30s on the highway it should be a decent car. My only complaint so far is the very small trunk space. I have read figures from 7.5 to 9.9 cu ft. At this time I prefer the LS430 to the GS models. They are only a few dollars more, with a lot more room and luxury. Not sure why they did not hybridize the flagship model first.
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Replying to: john1701a (Mar 17, 2006 5:32 am) Gasoline is low sulfur but will be going to Ultra Low Sulfur (< 15ppm of sulfur). There still going to be specific "designer" blends for various regions of the country. And actually, it does matter. Sulfur poisons some of the catalysts used to control certain emissions, especially NOx. Sulfur also contributes to another serious problem or two, namely acid rain (in the form of an acid) and to global warming (same acid compounds). |
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 17, 2006 6:35 am)  The current model is 45,000 at invoice. Any takers that the new model John speaks about will be less? I would guess it has more to do with higher end status and snob appeal.? Also the oems can get evenm much higher profit margins over the Prius. Most higher end cars do not get the "premium" fuel mileage. I would guess these consumers want to appear fuel conscious, while still having the "trappings." For the anticipated price of the 2007 model I can get 4/5 Honda Civics. At the current price of the current model I surely can get 4 Honda Civics.
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