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Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM
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Replying to: john1701a (Mar 13, 2006 5:57 am) The American driver wants more room, more luxury & more POWER. You cannot have it all ways. To build a PU truck that will tow 10,000 # and get 30 MPG even when empty is a pipe dream. Heck your "Green" Toyota cannot even build a mini PU using gas that gets an honest 20 MPG. The Tundra size with a V8 is one of the biggest gas guzzlers in it's class. No wonder Toyota has joined the other automakers in fighting CAFE standards that are unrealistic. Li-ion batteries are not your savior either. Face it the hybrids are an overly complex niche market. When the big expenses start to pile up on owners after 5 or 6 years with the hybrids they will go the way of the EV-1. Hybrids have not increased the choices of high mileage cars. They have decreased them. Toyota can point to the Prius and offer higher powered cars that get less MPG. Lastly where is the big production increase of the Prius? They only sold 6500 last month with people on waiting lists. Looks like contrived shortages to me.
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Replying to: john1701a (Mar 13, 2006 5:57 am) I would disagree, almost totally. We do not need the raising of CAFE standards, we just need cars built that actually GET higher fuel mileage. While I understand your positions, and the sentiments that probably drive it, it is PRECISELY the CAFE structure and the compliance forthwith that DRIVES the (unwanted) consequences you have seen in reality for a long long time. The CAFE standards are PRECISELY what allows selective enforcement such as the 5 state banning of "EPA directed programs" such as alternative fuels in which precisely the cars that do get better fuel mileage are banned. It also allows Toyota to market in far more %, volume, profit, vehicles that get FAR less mpg than the Prius. What is overlooked or ignored it is the sales and profit of THESE OTHER cars that FUELS (no pun intended but will take it just the same) the success of this Prius vehicle, and NOT the so called success of the Prius. I would dare say the new hydrogen (Honda Civic) powered cars would be a total waste of R & D monies time and effort, etc. Why? They DO NOT meet even the current CAFE standards and more importantly the current economical standards. For example; hydrogen is 16 dollars per gal (by weight) vs the current unconscionable prices of app 2.40 per gal, it also gets 22 mpg. Also CAFE standards do exactly the opposite of what they purport to accomplish. I bought a 1970 VW Beetle in 1971 that got between 30-34 mpg. Fuel was .27-.29 cents per gal.  Fast forward to my current 2004 Honda (Civic) which during a slightly different commute gets 37 mpg (app or so). I would hardly call this great strides in progress, mpg wise app 36 years later (slightly more than a generation later) . I just barely got a vehicle that gets between 44-62 mpg due to the narrow window in the way the CAFE regulations work. So indeed if your assertions are true that emissions are getting FAR worse, what have we been paying for for the last 36 years?? Are you really saying the switch to unleaded regular has been a complete and utter SHAM? Again, if marketing studies are to be believed, (in the case of the Hybrid), the Prius at even 2x the current production could be sold. Again the CAFE regulations help to create this "artificial" shortage. I suspect the oem's are using the current "shortage" to truly evaluate the REAL demand. They are smart as they have been wildly successful in creating the "BUZZ". However for continued success they can not afford to believe their own marketing hype.
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Replying to: ruking1 (Mar 13, 2006 7:14 am) Has there been any move by Toyota to build the Prius in the USA? We are the largest market for that car. They have built a factory in China and are producing the Prius in that country. Why do you suppose they are not building a factory in the USA? The TCH is supposed to be built here. I think it presents less of a pollution problem. I understand the Camry Hybrid will have a smaller battery and electric motor. Mostly powered by the 4 cylinder engine. Maybe the experts can fill us in on that.
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 13, 2006 7:37 am) But to make it more graphic for the purposes of this discussion, the cost effectiveness of the (subject) venture has probably yet to manifest itself. |
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Ford Escape Hybrid is selling poorly. quote Amy Wilson of Auto News-As of early March, Ford had a 152-day supply of the Escape Hybrid at dealerships in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, one source said. One dealer in that market has had a 2005 model parked on the lot for more than a year. "We move it around, clean snow off it; it sits," said the dealer, who did not want to be identified. Hybrid Highlander is not selling well. And it is no wonder why. Hybrids - Save Gas, Lose Money Of course, no matter how much the Prius is hyped, no matter how many HOV stickers are handed out, no matter how much $$$$$ government welfare tax breaks are provide to entice buyers to hybrids, the Prius still fails to match the sales of the F150, or the Silverado. And the availability of Camry-Hybrid will prove that hybrids are a niche. So the consumer mindset is unchanging regardless of whether there are hybrids.
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Replying to: moparbad (Mar 13, 2006 8:36 am) |
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Replying to: winter2 (Mar 13, 2006 9:08 am) I posted an earlier link which indicated Honda (world wide)wanted to come out with a SUB 13,000 gasser hybrid. The good news is it is rated at 84 mpg. The bad news is CAFE regulations will probably keep it from our shores (USA) I live in one of three CA epicenters for the Prius and it has yet to even make a statistically measurable reading ,much less a statistically correlated difference. |
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Replying to: winter2 (Mar 13, 2006 9:08 am)
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 13, 2006 9:27 am) That sudden surge of panic replies in response to my message was exactly what I had predicted. They were loaded with implications, misleading information, and denial of long-term goals. Go ahead if you want to keep feeding the anti-hybrid research. It will make for great data later to reflect upon... as the numbers and variety of hybrids continue to grow. JOHN |
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Replying to: john1701a (Mar 13, 2006 9:49 am) |
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