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Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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| Do diesel or hybrid powered cars count differently against CAFE than gas powered vehicles? If not, diesels would be a quick and easy way to boost CAFE averages since there shouldn't be any real re-engineering of the vehicle to put a diesel (that they would hopefully have available from another market) in. | |
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Replying to: seminole_kev (Jun 06, 2005 6:04 am) |
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A diesel car in CA using the available ULSD is 3 times cleaner burning than the same car in much of the EU. So they are not really ahead of us. They just dropped from 350 PPM sulfur to 50 PPM in January 2005. Japan is behind the US and the EU on mandating ULSD. They have a much higher percentage of diesel cars than we do. That is probably a big reason they subsidized the hybrids, to help clean up their air. If you drive a diesel and can find biodiesel, that is even a better way to help. If we are going to use less fossil fuel, clean diesel is one logical way to save. In December 2001, the European Environmental Council announced an agreement to cap sulfur levels at 10 ppm in every EU state by 2009 (from today's 350 ppm level, with an interim level of 50 ppm starting in 2005). 14 While EU NOx emission standards for 2008 are considerably less stringent than the upcoming American standards (in fact, the average European diesel car will emit nearly eight times as much NOx as the average American car at that time, regardless of its fuel), the EU PM emission standards are comparable to the American standard. Both of the EU emission standards will require near-zero levels of sulfur in diesel fuel. http://www.nrdc.org/air/transportation/psulfur.asp#note14 |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 06, 2005 5:54 am) AUTOMATIC transmission Jetta TDI real-world averages are reported in the low 40's. That example is either a manual transmission or someone getting above average results (or just reporting highway-only warm-weather-only data). In that case, I could report the mid 50's my Prius is currently delivering. JOHN
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 06, 2005 8:30 am) |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 06, 2005 9:03 am) The average consumer does not drive highway-only miles. So that mileage comment does not apply. Real-World driving is a mix of slow & fast speeds with a mix of stops & cruising. Show me data that applies to those conditions. > It is more a matter of preference Hence the average consumer preferring an automatic transmission. That is also why many owners find stealth so compelling, as well as the engine shutting off at stops. A non-hybrid diesel simply cannot compete. JOHN |
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"A non-hybrid diesel simply cannot compete." Compared to what? At what price (initial and long term)? For what task(s)? |
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 06, 2005 10:29 am) You are right that it cannot compete with the stealth or engine shut off attributes of a hybrid. It can and does compete on several other very important levels. I don't think the average driver is close to accepting the one car fits all, as you allude to. Not to mention the Jetta is safer than the Prius. ARLINGTON, VA, April 24, 2005 — The 2005 Volkswagen new Jetta earned good ratings in both frontal offset and side impact crash tests conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. Plus the Jetta is the first vehicle to earn the top rating of good in every individual measurement category (injury measures, head protection, and structural design) of the Institute's side impact test. This car is designated a "best pick" for side crash protection, and it's a good performer for frontal crash protection. The performance of the Jetta in these tests plus its acceptable rating for seat/head restraint design in rear impact tests make it the top-rated car overall in the inexpensive midsize class. The redesigned Jetta, which is larger than its predecessor model, was introduced in the 2005 model year, and these results apply to the new larger Jetta. "The new Jetta was the first vehicle to ace our side impact test," says Institute president Brian O'Neill. "It's the best performer among midsize inexpensive cars. Its structural performance was better than the second- and third-best models, the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. This new Jetta design shows what manufacturers can do to improve occupant protection in serious side impacts when cars are hit by taller and heavier SUVs and pickup trucks." http://www.autospectator.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1194 |
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 06, 2005 10:29 am) Hence the average consumer preferring an automatic transmission. That is also why many owners find stealth so compelling, as well as the engine shutting off at stops. Stealth is great, and I love it on my prius... However... the Jetta is leagues better than the prius. The diesel clatter you mention happens only when the engine is cold. The Prius suffers from NVH pretty much all of the time. My Prius (package 9) cost 26K. My previous Jetta (1.8t) cost 24K. Guess which had the better interior? Guess which was more comfortable? Guess which wasn't full of plastic fantastic? Guess which had proper instruments and real controls? If VW offered a Jetta hybrid (Mild IMA like or Full HSD/Ford like), I'd jump on it in a second. |
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 06, 2005 8:30 am) That example is either a manual transmission or.... So an automatic gets, what 44.5? Is that low 40's to you? 42? Still it's great mileage. And if it is a manual, then great. You say it like it being used to distort the numbers. Manual transmission is an option, so why should it's mileage not count? In fact, it would be my option and not the auto. I think that the average consumer is being biased by availability of manual transmissions. I know too many people that drive an auto ONLY because there was no manual option in the car they wanted. Give them to option and they woul have picked manual. But that's another topic. The TDI is quite quiet and I wouldn't care if it sounded like a Mack truck. I don't need stealth mode. I want to HEAR my engine and feel it. And to my point about the prius being more complicated, it is apparently stalling on people while they're driving (moving). Apparently at either 35 or 65 mph. Sounds scary to me. The NHTSA is investigating it. |
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