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Automotive News & Views Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds? 
5196 messages, Last post on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:55 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: ratbert (Jun 03, 2005 6:52 am) Prius provides up to 295 lb-ft torque. That's more than some diesels. > Mostly drive 45-60 mph with few stops. Prius actually does better in those conditions than highway driving. > $30k+ for a prius? First, that price is clearly not average. Most currently only pay sticker. Diesel supporters are notorious for using extremely short-term data to make hybrids look expensive and long-term data to make diesel look clean. Choose one and stick with it. Long-Term is my preference. And we all know hybrids will cost less then. JOHN
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 04, 2005 5:50 am) Now that they are more available I will have to go and test drive the Prius II. We travel a section of Interstate 8 from the El Cajon Valley to Descanso. It is about a 3500 foot rise in 10 miles. That will be a good test. If it can maintain 75 MPH up that grade it will handle most anything you need.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 04, 2005 7:20 am) Still, it's a dead horse for me as I will only drive a manual and need AWD. I'm slowly getting used to running my '02 Outback at 3500 rpms in 3rd gear just to make it up the hills in my commute. Driving has to be enjoyable to me, otherwise it's a chore. Crank up the stereo and have fun for the 35 minutes to and from work!  It's all about the whole package, not just economy and cost. I find the hybrids out there quite ugly (prius) or just plain boring/bland (civic/escape/highlander/accord). personal preference. People think of cars differently. I like a manual transmission coupled to an engine. I don't like fancy stuff in between. It numbs the feel of the car to you. And finally - I have to be able to rip out the crappy factory stereo and put one in myself. If I can't do that, then it's a deal breaker for ANY car.
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Replying to: ratbert (Jun 05, 2005 2:42 pm) Jetta GL Auto TDI both accelerates slower and is less efficient than Prius. That mild clatter of the diesel engine is rather hard to overlook too. JOHN
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 05, 2005 7:25 pm) Simplicity, is the key that those that love the hybrid technology overlook. As complex as all new cars are, the hybrids are much more complex. It is easier to jump into a VW TDI and get good mileage than a hybrid. Not a lot of people like to "hyper-mile" it. If my driving was mostly commuting in town with a lot of stop and go the Prius would be on the list. I think it excels in that area. Most of my in town driving is less than 3 miles each way. Nothing but an EV does good under those circumstances. If you like to get out a drive the highways and byways as I do. It is hard to beat a modern diesel car. I suspect I will sell this 2005 Passat very soon and get a Mercedes E320 CDI. I need a little more luxury and don't want to give up the superior German handling. They are not noisy. They are not as quiet as the Prius in stealth mode. They are quieter when you are pulling a long hard hill at 75 MPH.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 05, 2005 7:55 pm) Though true with "assist" hybrids that add components, it is not with "full" hybrids... since the PLANETARY-CVT design actually eliminates some. Complexity is becomes a wash as the years proceed anyway. At that point, consumers turn to consumer ratings instead of analyzing design. And guess what, Prius already rates higher in reliability that the diesel Jetta. JOHN
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 05, 2005 9:03 pm) As you know 90 day ratings are all but useless. We have had lots of years to watch the VW TDI. The engine was not the problem. It was the electronics and wiring issues. The hybrids have a lot more electronics and wiring to go bad. The Prius IS being investigated for problems. More problems are coming to light. Such as catching on fire while sitting in a parking lot. I am waiting on that one to plays out. Supposedly no aftermarket devices were installed. What is the figure, 38% more parts than a comparable non-hybrid. Until they become very popular you will be tied to the manufacturers for parts. That is not the case with the VW TDIs. Complexity will not become a wash. It will lead to early dumping of vehicles to avoid paying enormous repair bills. That goes for all vehicles. Throwaway cars are not beneficial to our environment.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 06, 2005 4:47 am) Prius has been on the road in the United States for 5 years. That's a decent amount of data to work with, and what the discussion is based on. Taking advantage of media hype based on a handful owners that haven't gotten their updates yet is clearly not constructive. That conjecture doesn't answer the original question either. Once again, how exactly will non-hybrid diesels attract the attention of the average consumer? JOHN
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"how exactly will non-hybrid diesels attract the attention of the average consumer? " Well I'd say with great amounts of torque on tap and great fuel economy at a sticker price that should be competitive with regular gas powered cars and below hybrid pricing. Should at least perk consumers ears. Especially in the US where "we" like automatic transmissions and low end torque ("we" generally don't like to rev our engines). Good match up. |
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 06, 2005 5:07 am) The attraction to the diesel cars is easy. They are much more efficient than their gas comparables. They would be selling in much larger numbers than hybrids if allowed in CA, and the 4 other wannabe states. My VW dealer here said that not a day does by without someone asking if they have the TDI version available. The service manager wants mine. With the Jetta and Passat it is a no brainer. The TDI version outperforms the gas version, and ULSD in San Diego is cheaper than the Premium required for the gas VW. When mine gets to 7500 miles I may sell at MSRP and get another one or a MB CDI. Plus VWs handle like a dream. I can't get my wife out from behind the wheel. She has not taken her Lexus out of the garage since we got the Passat TDI. You should test drive the 2005 Passat TDI, you may sell your Prius. I am going to test drive the Prius in the next few days. If you check on the website below, take a look at the 2004 Prius and 2004 Jetta TDI. "Average user MPG". The Prius average of 48.4 MPG is 12% below the EPA rating. The Jetta TDI is 46.4 MPG or 13% better than the EPA rating. The Prius gets very good mileage, under most conditions. So does the VW TDI. With all the gouging and shortages of the Prius, the VW TDI may be a good alternative for some folks. Although many VW dealers were charging $1000 over MSRP for the few available VW Jetta TDIs just 6 months ago. To me no car is a good deal at much over invoice. Use the internet and find a good price. Offer that to your local dealer. Let them know you are willing to fly across the country to save money. Send a message to all car dealers, we are not fools. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
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