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Can hybrids be "performance" vehicles?

80 messages,  Last post on Mar 12, 2009 at 6:08 PM

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#61 of 80 Re: Hybrid and Performance [cdptrap] by pf_flyer HOST May 07, 2005 (5:20 am)
Replying to: cdptrap (May 06, 2005 1:12 pm) Not a bad set of criteria... I especially like the addition of getting up to passing speed. I recall having a dog of a Focus as a rental car in LA a few years ago that was pretty much maxed out when traveling at freeway speeds.If I let off at all, I suddenly was a rolling roadblock and a real hazard, but keeping up with the traffic had me in a position where if I needed anything more speed or a quick acceleration, it just wasn't going to be there.   So this really defines it not as "Will Ferarri Make a Hybrid" but more along the lines of "What kind of performance can you get out of a hybrid and still keep the mileage performance gains?"   Gold star for you for giving this one a solid direction!
#62 of 80 Re: Hybrid and Performance [falconone] by gagrice May 07, 2005 (5:26 am)
Replying to: falconone (May 07, 2005 4:59 am) How does your old Suburban brake?   What can I say, it is a heavy truck, I drive it accordingly. One of the complaints I had with the HAH is the fact that Honda built a car that will go 0-60 mph in under 7 seconds and does not have a good 70-0 mph stopping distance. A fast car should stop as well as it accelerates. That includes hybrids with regenerative braking.   The positive side is people buying hybrids seem more interested in getting good mileage rather than going fast. Owning a hybrid or high mileage vehicle of any fuel type seems to encourage hypermiling at some level. Replies to this message: falconone (May 07, 2005 9:48 am)
#63 of 80 Re: Hybrid and Performance [gagrice] by falconone May 07, 2005 (9:48 am)
Replying to: gagrice (May 07, 2005 5:26 am) In general all Hondas & Acuras don't have the braking consistent with their performance. I am impressed by the improvement in the Prius brake system in their latest version. The few that I have driven don't give you a sensation that their are two forces slowing you down (the regen and the discs). Haven't driven the RH yet and I hope it's braking performance can handle the 4500 lb weight especially going down a long grade.
#64 of 80 hybrids powered by aaa duracells by dewey May 07, 2005 (6:52 pm)
"What kind of performance can you get out of a hybrid and still keep the mileage performance gains?"   Hybrids may accomplish the performance criteria established above, BUT hybrids cannot beat the best performance cars powered by internal combustion engines. And I know I am repeating this mantra over and over again but here it goes again:   Hybrid technology creates heavier cars than cars powered solely with internal combustion engines and that is the hybrid disadvantage in terms of performance.   If hybrids are powered by a battery that is no bigger than aaa duracells then it may be possible. But by then there most likely will be hydrogen performance cars. Replies to this message: pf_flyer (May 08, 2005 6:14 am)
#65 of 80 Re: hybrids powered by aaa duracells [dewey] by pf_flyer HOST May 08, 2005 (6:14 am)
Replying to: dewey (May 07, 2005 6:52 pm) Some may want a hybrid that can compete with conventional performance vehciles, but as you pointed out, the weight issue is simply going to prevent that. I think the criteria set out in the list above is a good measuring stick though. "Performance" is going to be a relative term. Much like a Sentra SE-R is more of a performance vehicle than a standard Sentra, but I wouldn't really lump it in with the picture in my head when the terms "sports cars" or "performance vehicle" is mentioned.
#66 of 80 " Performance vehicle" ...................... by daysailer May 09, 2005 (9:26 am)
has always been a relative term. That is, a vehicle which has dynamic limits that exceed the norm of the day sufficient to be noteworthy. Few performance vehicles of 50 years past would stand out even among 'garden variety" cars of today. In the "bad ole days" of the 70s (remember the "Pintang"?), the BMW 2002 tii was a quick car yet its 9.something 0-60 would be called a slug today.   There are no absolute, unchanging measures of performance, and I doubt that a hybrid will be THE highest performance vehicle in all dimensions, but only the lack of will and market economics will prevent the development of "performance" hybrids. Replies to this message: cdptrap (May 09, 2005 2:53 pm) dewey (May 09, 2005 6:33 pm) dewey (May 10, 2005 6:49 am)
#67 of 80 Performance vehicle by cdptrap May 09, 2005 (2:53 pm)
Replying to: daysailer (May 09, 2005 9:26 am) Daysailer had a great point about ever changing criteria. The BMW example made the point.   Not long ago, mfr proudly badged their cars with a tag that read "Fuel Inject" or "FI" or "I". Now, we assume fuel injection under every hood. Can we assume a high-torque battery under every hood in 10 years? Battery technology is not new, it has been used in everything from hand tools to submarines. It is finally "small" enough to fit in a passenger car. Its instantaneous torque is very attractive to all drivers.   May be the interesting question is not whether a hybrid can achieve performance but whether it can maintain performance. We know that this technology, with a fully charged battery, can achieve 65MPH from dead stop in 6.8 to 7.3 seconds pushing a 4600-lb vehicle (RX 400h). It is even faster than its lighter sibling the 330. The problem is what happens when the battery loses its charge? The heavier 400h only has a 206-HP engine while its lighter sibling the 330 has a 230-HP engine. On a twisting mountain road with only the driver, the 206-HP version will lose its speed performance if its batteries cannot do any work. The batteries become useless and are just deadweight.   It will be fun and informative to speculate how manufacturers can address this problem so that "hybrid" technology becomes mainstream in 5 years. Replies to this message: dewey (May 09, 2005 6:33 pm) dewey (May 10, 2005 6:49 am)
#69 of 80 Re: Performance vehicle [cdptrap] by dewey May 09, 2005 (6:33 pm)
Replying to: cdptrap (May 09, 2005 2:53 pm) It's the amazingly high torque levels that helps the Toyota hybrids acceleration. Hybrids are sort of like turbos in terms of generating impressive torque.
#70 of 80 Re: Performance vehicle [cdptrap] by dewey May 10, 2005 (6:49 am)
Replying to: cdptrap (May 09, 2005 2:53 pm) The problem is what happens when the battery loses its charge?   Pardon my ignorance, but do hybrid batteries lose their charge frequently or would such events be rare?

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