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Can hybrids be "performance" vehicles?

80 messages,  Last post on Mar 12, 2009 at 6:08 PM

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#1 of 80
Can a Hybrid be a "performance" vehicle? by pf_flyer HOST
May 04, 2005 (11:01 am)
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We're still in the early stages of hybrid technology, but we're already seeing vehicles like the Lexus RX400h which people are expecting both the power and mileage performance out of. That brings up the question...
 
Can a hybrid really be a performance vehicle?
#2 of 80
Hybrid performance by gagrice
May 04, 2005 (11:13 am)
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Replying to: pf_flyer (May 04, 2005 11:01 am)

There are two hybrids that are considered good performers. The Accord Hybrid and the RX400h. As the new owners are finding out, they are not both high performance & economical at the same time. You can do either, not both at the same time. As long as a person is happy with that limitation in a vehicle, no problem. I have too much difficulty nursing a high performance car along at 65 MPH. Heck I drive our old Lexus 85 MPH to keep up with traffic. At 80-85 MPH the old LS400 still gets 27 MPG on a 200 mile roundtrip. What can you get with the RX400h & HAH at that speed?
#3 of 80
Hybrid Performance Contradictions by dewey
May 04, 2005 (10:54 am)
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Hybrid technology in the future must weigh less in order for hybrids to be labeled a performance vehicle!
 
Why?
 
Performance is not only about high hp and torque! That is only half the equation. The other half is agility and handling. The heavy weight of hybrid technology subdues a vehicle's handling/agility. That kills the thrill of doing some exciting manuevers.
 
Performance diesel vehicles are not a contradiction since they are lighter . This is an explanation why BMW and Audi produce diesel sport sedans.
 
The funniest example of a hybrid performance vehicle is a Honda Accord Hybrid.
It is heavy, front wheel drive, not nimble and no manual---all features that contradict what a performance sport sedan should be!
 
 
#4 of 80
dewey by rorr
May 04, 2005 (11:10 am)
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Agree 100% - in theory.
 
However, if we consider the mentality of the current marketplace (and probable future marketplace), buyers focus on the numbers. "Mileage" junkies focus on the EPA numbers. "Performance" junkies focus on hp numbers. I can't tell you how many times over in the "Ody vs. Sienna" thread that the pro-Honda folks kept focusing in on the Ody hp advantage while completely ignoring the Sienna 400 lb weight advantage. Weight just isn't on the radar screen; hp numbers are.
 
So, from a future hybrid stand, does this mean that future hybrids may have fewer and lighter batteries, sacrificing energy capacity for lighter weight? Possibly; lighter and fewer batteries could also cut down on the cost (both up front and at replacement) as well as aid in packaging. The downside would be that the ICE would be relied on to a greater extent in stop and go traffic.
#5 of 80
Want to have our cake and eat it too? by pf_flyer HOST
May 04, 2005 (11:53 am)
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I'm noticing some complaints about mileage for the Lexus RX400h, but then again, it's an SUV and I would expect that the power/performance vs mileage tradeoff is in full effect there.
 
Sudden thought... if hybrid "sports cars" did appear on the scene, how long do you think it would be before people were racing them?
 
Seriously, it's going to take some kind of radical breakthrough in battery technology or the discovery of some alternate means of supplementing the gasoline engine before we get true performance hybrids, isn't it??
#6 of 80
Re: Hybrid Performance Contradictions [dewey] by sinepman
May 04, 2005 (12:09 pm)
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Replying to: dewey (May 04, 2005 10:54 am)

Isn't the HAH similar to the normal version? I thought the suspension was the same as well. Agree on the manual too, but most Corvettes are sold with automatics so go figure!!!!
#7 of 80
Hybrid-Performance compromise by dewey
May 04, 2005 (12:13 pm)
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Hybrid performance vehicles are a compromise. Both contradict each others and when you press the pedal hard you find out that those reported EPA figures are a pipe dream. Drive the car at a lethargic pace and you finally you achieve EPA figures.
 
So my question is: What is the point of performance-hybrids?
 
My next car will be a uncompromised benchmark car. It will either be a benchmark fuel miser(diesel or hybrid) or a benchmark performance car. Certainly not a hybrid performance car:You end up getting the worst of both worlds.
 
IMO a good fuel miser would be a Prius/VW Jetta TDI. I would prefer the Prius because most my driving is in the city.
 
Performance--the new 06 BMW 3 series. Also it has 13% improved fuel consumption compare to the 05 model. Not bad! BUT fuel economy is not the reason I would buy such a vehicle.
 
#8 of 80
Re: Want to have our cake and eat it too? [pf_flyer] by daysailer
May 04, 2005 (12:17 pm)
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Replying to: pf_flyer (May 04, 2005 11:53 am)

I think the hurdles are market (read price) driven more than technological. Take for example the Insight (yeah, I know, it's FWD but bear with me). It weighs under 1900lb so fairly modest gains in hp could reap big benefits and I doub't that there's any insurmountable barrier to upgrading its suspension and brakes. Imagine what even adding forced induction to the existing engine might accomplish. the bigger obstacle is to sell it at a marketable price absent the manufacturer's subsidy.
 
Whether true economy or sporting dynamics are the objective, cost remains the issue.
#9 of 80
Re: Hybrid-Performance compromise [dewey] by benderofbows
May 04, 2005 (12:25 pm)
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Replying to: dewey (May 04, 2005 12:13 pm)

Exactly- adding existing hybrid technology to a vehicle is not an effective way to increase performance. It would be much more cost-effective to pursue conventional means of adding power such as engine tuning, forced induction or vehicle weight reduction.
 
If you drive your hybrid very gently you may recover the extra cost of the hybrid technology sometime near the end of the vehicles' life expectancy through fuel cost savings. If you drive it for performance, you'll never get that extra money back because your mileage won't increase much.
#10 of 80
Re: Want to have our cake and eat it too? [daysailer] by benderofbows
May 04, 2005 (12:27 pm)
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Replying to: daysailer (May 04, 2005 12:17 pm)

But why start with a hybrid car? How would an Insight be a better platform than a regular (cheaper but equally powerful) Civic for turbocharging?

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