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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread - READ ONLY

12297 messages,  Last post on Apr 13, 2007 at 12:55 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum.

What is this discussion about? Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Subaru Legacy, Saturn Aura, Sedan

Messages Page 960 of 1231

#9586 of 12297 Re: ESC Video [kdshapiro] by alpha01

Dec 02, 2006 (2:02 pm)

Replying to: kdshapiro (Dec 01, 2006 7:01 pm)
Thanks, kdshapiro, I thought that was a really interesting video.
 
A few notes. For touting the many advantages of Subaru products, the organization would do well to extend VDC to the entire line of Legacy/OB products. In Consumer Reports test of the 2.5GT-L, they noted a tendency for excessive tailwag (oversteer) in advoidance manuvers. I can attest to this as my father, who exited a highway off-ramp on the Garden State Parkway at too great a speed for the raining conditions (his fault), spun across a grassy median and over a drainage grate/ditch which tore up the the lower body and some underbits after the rear of the car broke loose and he lost control (Like the Volvo XC70 in the video). I'm convinced that ESC would have prevented or mitigated this incidents in that vehicle.
 
Although I've not had that experience, I can say that I've driven vehicles with and without ESC back to back, thanks to one of the best automotive events I've had the pleasure of attending: The Hyundai Sonata Competitive event in July of 2005. At this event, Sonatas of all trims, and Camry XLE V6s and Accord EX V6s were made available, for driving around several plyon marked courses.
 
The handling course was a blast, and it the results of my drives surprised me. Though regarded as the sportiest of the bunch, being a good but not professionally trained driver, I had the hardest time piloting the Accord around the course quickly, in my opinion owing to the fact that 05s DID NOT have ESC. At the wheel, the Accord definitely felt as though it had the most responsive steering, excellent road feel, and very agreeable brakes, but modest tire grip, more transient roll than I expected, and the lack of ESC left me white-knuckled. I mean, I really drove to the dual limits of 1) my ability and 2) the cars ability within that threshold, and it was in the Accord that I felt the least comfortable, and the only car in which I knocked a few cones down, IIRC.
 
The non-SE Camry, while slower in responses, rolling a bit more (though I expected that) and being much less powerful than the Sonata and Accord (we're talking last gen, here, remember) was very forgiving due to its ESC. More invasive than the Sonata's, I never felt like it was so invasive that it would cause the car to shut down(?), though I think its a good move that Toyota is now offering drivers the ability to switch off the ESC in many of its Lexus sedans (GS, IS, LS).
 
The Sonata was great - no surprises, easy to control, quick, and enjoyable to drive.
 
Really, I think its funny that people can call certain vehicles 'not fun to drive' - the last gen Camry was supposed to be boring as hell, but for everyday enthusiasts like the folks on these boards, I don't see how one WOULDNT have fun driving at an event like this, in any car. I could drive a Chevy Aveo around those courses and have a blast, taking that dime box to the limits of its capabilities (and mine). Its not something we do every day, drive at 10/10ths...ya know? I'd like more events like this.....
 
Ok so.... long-winded way of saying: I'm a very firm believer in the benefits of ESC in assisting non professional drivers, based on personal experience, and in this segment Hyundai should be lauded for making it standard, and Ford should be embarrassed that its FuLans are incapable of even carrying the option because of the limitations of its ABS system.
 
~alpha

#9587 of 12297 Re: ESC Video [alpha01] by explorerx4

Dec 02, 2006 (9:41 pm)

Replying to: alpha01 (Dec 02, 2006 2:02 pm)
...even dustin hoffman is an 'excellent driver'.
i'm waiting to see the real life accident results(stats) for esc vs non esc vehicles. using the '05 accord as an example, the '06 stats should be noticably better.
anyone have those? maybe other models had esc earlier?

#9588 of 12297 Re: ESC Video [explorerx4] by jeffyscott

Dec 03, 2006 (6:19 am)

Replying to: explorerx4 (Dec 02, 2006 9:41 pm)
There have been several real world studies comparing collision and death stats for ESC and non-ESC equipped vehicles. Summaries of a couple of them are available at: http://www.iihs.org/research/topics/esc.html

#9589 of 12297 Re: ESC Video [alpha01] by kdshapiro

Dec 03, 2006 (8:04 am)

Replying to: alpha01 (Dec 02, 2006 2:02 pm)
My pleasure. Without sounding like the poster-boy of electronic nannies (which I'm not), people who don't understand what benefit an ESC system could bring to the control of a car when needed, are selling themselves short. You first understand the benefit then make the decision whether you want a vehicle that offers it or not. Not all ESC systems were created equal, but they all attempt to help the driver maintain control of the car.

#9590 of 12297 Re: ESC Video [explorerx4] by kdshapiro

Dec 03, 2006 (8:11 am)

Replying to: explorerx4 (Dec 02, 2006 9:41 pm)
It's going to be a long while before you see those stats. If you can imagine the XC70 and Subaru on crowded highways. The Subaru avoids a collision and then stays on track because of ESC, the Volvo avoids the same obstacle, but then hits another car due to fishtailing.
 
ESC only works within the physical limits of the car though. A car going 80 mph will probably spin out and roll over no matter what type of tires, brakes and ESC system the car has.
 
In addition, accidents or accident rates could be worse for the 06, but collision avoidance is better. You can't tell from accident rates whether the driver could avoid the crash or not. It's like ABS and DRLs in that regard. How many accidents have ABS and DRLs avoided?

#9591 of 12297 Quote from link in #9588 by imidazol97

Dec 03, 2006 (8:14 am)

>According to a new analysis by the Highway Loss Data Institute, an affiliate of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, losses under collision coverage are about 15 percent lower for vehicles with ESC than for predecessor models without it. However, ESC doesn't have much effect on property damage liability claims or the frequency of injury claims. These findings track police-reported crashes, which show little effect of ESC on the risk of low-severity multiple-vehicle crashes.
 
This says the property damage and injury claims are affected.
 
Who wants to tackle what the meaning of this quote is.
 
My opinion on ESC is that it may keep the car from doing what a driver wants to do because it senses that's going to cause oversteer or understeer and "correct" that. That means the vehicle will tend to continue in the same direction and at the same speed due to the effect of the Stabilitrak. The laws of physics can't be repealed. In cases where traction is good, the effect of the Stabilitrak can be positive much like ABS has little impact extending stopping distance due to its wheel slip control. But in marginal cases, ice, snow, rain, wet surfaces, the maintaining of vehicle direction may take the car in a different,undesirable path.

#9592 of 12297 Re: Cognition & Comprehension Re in general... [62vetteefp] by moparbad

Dec 03, 2006 (11:03 am)

Replying to: 62vetteefp (Dec 02, 2006 9:51 am)
My comment was humor, though I kow for a fact that there are automotive engineers still working that were employed in the late 70's and 80's.

#9593 of 12297 Re: Quote from link in #9588 [imidazol97] by exshoman

Dec 03, 2006 (1:33 pm)

Replying to: imidazol97 (Dec 03, 2006 8:14 am)
I can't think of a single case where understeer (continuing in a straight line when turning the wheel) is desirable. This is the type of thing that ESC is supposed to help with. If the driver comes into a turn a bit too fast, and turns the wheel but the car understeers and wants to continue going forward, it will brake the inside rear wheel to cause the car's rear to swing around slightly so that the car will now go in the direction that YOU wanted it to go.
 
True, no system is going to defy the laws of physics. You go into a 25 MPH exit going 90 in the rain, you're going to eat the guard rail, ESC or no.
 
I think what all you guys are worried about is ESC removing the fun you can have with oversteer (where the rear loses traction and wants to swing the rear around). Oversteer has provided plenty of thrills to drivers over the years, and this aspect is what the car magazines complain about when the ESC cuts in too quickly. ESC can't tell if you know what what you're doing, or if you're getting in over your head.
 
So in that case, true, ESC is keeping you from doing what you want it to do. Which is why most systems have an off switch. If you want to go out and play "Tokyo Drift", by all means have at it.
 
As far as ESC and ABS being more effective on dry traction than wet traction, I think you've got that backwards. ABS and ESC really show their advantage on wet traction situations where it's really easy to end up sliding out of control, especially in quick response accident avoidance type maneuvers.

#9594 of 12297 Re: Quote from link in #9588 [exshoman] by elroy5

Dec 03, 2006 (2:13 pm)

Replying to: exshoman (Dec 03, 2006 1:33 pm)
I agree with everything exshoman said. Even if I believe ESC will probably never be needed by me (don't drive my family car on the edge), it's still nice to know the other "distracted drivers" on the road have ESC. It may save them from a situation where they might hit me. It would be nice to have the option, to turn ESC off, but even if you can't, I still think it's a good (not great), but a good idea.
 
The best way to prevent more accidents from happening (IMO) is to better educate (formal driver training) drivers before they acquire a driver's lisence. This should be a mandatory requirement.

#9595 of 12297 Re: Quote from link in #9588 [exshoman] by imidazol97

Dec 03, 2006 (3:28 pm)

Replying to: exshoman (Dec 03, 2006 1:33 pm)
>If the driver comes into a turn a bit too fast, and turns the wheel but the car understeers
 
The scene I'm seeing is there's a reason for the understeer, water and the wheels are not gaining traction, ice, or snow. The wheels are not gaining traction to effect side thrust on the front wheels, so the rear tires with even less weight on most FWD cars is going have the inside rear brake apply and it will somehow gain traction even though the two front tires aren't and that force will cause an angular force to rotate the car in the direction the front wheels should have been rotation the vehicle.
 
Or the car is in oversteer meaning the rear wheels are not sticking, water, ice, or snow, and the car will apply the rear brake on the outside to cause the car to rotate with less angular momentum than it was causing the car to go straighter rather than turning. So the driver ends up going where they didn't want to go or they wouldn't have been turning the wheel, i.e. a telephone pole on the outside of the turn.
 
These are the examples I can see happening. The usual Stabilitrak type example is changing lanes quickly in a row of cones into the next lane. I still see it as you can't have more force applied to the tire contact patch to control the car than the physics of the situation allow.
 
I take the example of a heavy rain and entering a 180 degree ramp much, much too fast. The car is not going to turn 180 degrees without a drastic reduction of speed. But the ESC is not going to let it try to turn because it's going to straighten the path as it prevents oversteer or understeer...

Messages Page 960 of 1231

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