Last post on Apr 13, 2007 at 11:55 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Subaru Legacy, Saturn Aura, Sedan
#9217 of 12297 Re: the reason for the 2GR [captain2]
Nov 21, 2006 (12:57 pm)
Even beyond this the development started back when the 4.0L V6 came out in the current 4Runner. This all-aluminum engine was a breakthrough not only in performance but in cost ( see below ). It is the base engine now in all the..
It was the basis for the new 3.5L that first went into the Avalon, then RAV, then Camry, Sienna, next Highlander as well as most Lexus'
In fact Toyota now has one basic V6 throughout its product line in NA. Not only is this ultra efficient from a production pov but in developing the engine Bodine Aluminum literally send $Billions directly to the bottom line.
The new engine technology is now in use not only at Bodine, which Toyota bought in 1990, but also at foundries in Japan and China. Partly as a result, the cost of building an engine for the redesigned Camry that was scheduled to go on sale in March will be about $1,000, half the cost of an engine for the previous generation of Camrys, says Gary Convis, executive vice president for North American manufacturing.
#9218 of 12297 Re: Honeymoon ended with the new Sonata... [backy]
Nov 21, 2006 (1:14 pm)
Still missing my point.
Let's say all of the cars (Camcordnata) were from the same make, and optioned alike, cost the same, which cars would get most sales?
To me, the Sonata is 90% of the car the Accord is, at 75% of the price, which is a great deal. It fell short on some interior design aspects, it's lack of a 5-speed automatic in the 4-cylinder model, and didn't impress me in interior quality. It drove fine, but wasn't a standout. Some people are willing to pay that extra 25% to get that extra 10% of quality/design.
Do I make any sense NOW? I'm just talking about the cars; not the names of the cars, or the brand cachet.
#9219 of 12297 Re: the reason for the 2GR [lilengineerboy]
Nov 21, 2006 (1:31 pm)
like the supra
The Supra is making a comeback! supposedly as an 08 model, this time with a 350-400 hp version of the 2GR, RWD - of course. IMO that straight 6 in the Supra in the 90's was the last 'performance' engine Toyota made until the 2GR.
#9220 of 12297 Re: the reason for the 2GR [kdhspyder]
Nov 21, 2006 (1:38 pm)
great article - never had read it before. Thanks for the link
#9221 of 12297 Re: Honeymoon ended with the new Sonata... [thegraduate]
Nov 21, 2006 (1:42 pm)
"To me, the Sonata is 90% of the car the Accord is, at 75% of the price, which is a great deal."
Exactly like saying my Timex is 90% of the watch a Rolex is at 99.99% of the price.
#9222 of 12297 Re: Honeymoon ended with the new Sonata... [thegraduate]
Nov 21, 2006 (2:14 pm)
Well, when you put it that way, then that changes things. You will get some people who prefer the Sonata because it offers the most room and a smoother ride than the Accord, plus they may prefer the styling and like all the standard safety features. You will get some people who prefer the handling of the Accord. You will get some people who prefer the power of the V6 in the Camry. Since there is no brand cachet involved, there is no difference based on reliability or resale value, which are two of the main reasons Accords and Camrys sell for more than the Sonata.
#9223 of 12297 Re: Honeymoon ended with the new Sonata... [lilengineerboy]
Nov 21, 2006 (2:15 pm)
had somebody that worked for me - his wife's car a 325 - great driving machine - ran and looked great - took it into BMW for its 40k scheduled maintainence and came back with a $2300.00 bill! Really, a $1200.00 brake job, $600.00 tuneups etc.. Don't know these days how anybody can affrod to drive the things past the 'free scheduled maintanenece period' they have these days. Given even the costs associated with regular maintainence, it is beyond me how the resale values don't take a big hit because of how much they cost to keep running. Absolutely wonderful 'driver's' cars, however.
Would suggest to you though, that is likely never going to be a good fiscal decision to buy any car new regardless of what it is.
#9224 of 12297 Re: Honeymoon ended with the new Sonata... [zzzoom6]
Nov 21, 2006 (2:16 pm)
I won't get a 3 Series that has iDrive--one reason to get a used one. And I doubt whether my wife will ever put her hands on the steering wheel.
#9225 of 12297 Re: Honeymoon ended with the new Sonata... [captain2]
Nov 21, 2006 (2:52 pm)
Got ripped off. Anyone can get ripped off, $2300 is not a normal amount unless something was damaged. I never take any car to the dealer past warranty always find a good mechanic. Lexus isn't cheap either and the same type of sticker shock/ripoff can easily be had. Same for Infiniti.
#9226 of 12297 Re: Honeymoon ended with the new Sonata... [captain2]
Nov 21, 2006 (2:57 pm)
You sure did get ripped off. Here's why I think you did.
Had a 5 series Beemer a few years back. Didn't like it that much because it rode harshly, seats were really firm to the point of being uncomfortable, and it just seemed to be generally unworthy of its high price tag. Wouldn't buy another one, but not just for those reasons. Read on.
Spent a couple of years in France after that, and learned what I think is the truth about BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and their ilk--all high end, "prestige" autos in our hemisphere.
They are in many ways no better or worse than any other make, but in general, command a higher price--again, mainly in our hemisphere. There is an "image" factor for those makes that people seem to be very willing to pay high prices for here.
However, in Europe, prices for those makes are lower--a fair bit lower, I might add. Most everybody can afford one, and they are much more common in everyday life than here.
I found out why when we tried to buy a MB and bring it back when we returned to North America. I was told if I wanted to buy one there, I had to buy it thru a North American dealer, even though I would take delivery of it in Europe.
I also learned that the North American dealer networks for those makes has been granted that ruling because they want to protect their market pricing points---basically because the difference between prices in Europe and North America is entirely markup--significant markup BTW!
So what we're paying for when we buy "Prestige" automobiles is basically markup--far in excess of value added content.
The marketing for those makes feeds on our North American insatiable need for for "status", and marketing simply capitalizes on it.
At the end of the day, it showed me that anyone can get every bit as good a car at a much lower price/value level than those so called "prestige" automobiles. Paying totally ridiculous prices for for "status" is silly in my book!
Your best value is right smack in the middle of what this particular discussion is all about--Mid Size Sedans.