Last post on Apr 13, 2007 at 11:55 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Subaru Legacy, Saturn Aura, Sedan
#4512 of 12297 The Impala does off the 303 HP
Jun 21, 2006 (6:29 pm)
V8...and that in itself would turn a number of buyers away without even lookin at the gas mileage....the fact that the car has a V8 engine.
Further, I did not say the Accord was the most powerful, but that it had more horsepower than MANY of its competitors (Fusion, Sonata, Mazda6, Malibu, just to name a few)
And if you'd take the time to read my posts you'd see that I ACKNOWLEDGED that the Domestic were far ahead in the horsepower game back in the 80s and 90s...
I don't think what Nissan is doing is stupid with the Hybrid. So far Hybrids still have limited appeal...I think they are waiting to see how Toyota and Honda's hybrid vehicles pan out before they get into the game. I think Nissan is ONLY using the Hybrid so that it can met some type of gas mileage requirement (or so I heard, and I work for a Nissan dealer now)
I'm not a betting man...but I'm sure Honda is going to do what it did the last time they had to redesign a car...benchmark everybody...they always do because they get the extra year to work out the kinks and add some features.
Back when the Camry and new Altima hit the scene in 2001, EVERYBODY thought the Accord was doomed...nope...2003 came along...and Honda was once again the benchmark.
Let's be real...if Honda can design Acura's cars to at least be competitive in some shape or form with their luxury counterparts, what in the world makes you think Honda can't do the same thing...
Also, the difference between what Honda does compared to Toyota and Nissan is this...every time the Camry or Altima get's redesigned, it leapfrogs the Accord a bit...but by the time the new Accord comes out it continues ruling until the next "new" generation of cars comes out. Case in point...in just about ALL comparisons with the Accord vs. the competition it comes in first place (except: Consumer Reports and Edmunds.com test of the 'Nata V6 vs I4 Camcords and maybe one other test)
But any other comparison test done by say Car and Driver, Road and Track and Motor Trend that compares the Accord with the Camry, Altima, Sonata and others, the Accord usually comes out on top unless a new camry hits the lots...and by the next year Honda takes over again.
The Camry might be the bigger seller, but OVERALL, it's the Accord that's considered the benchmark of this class...it has almost always been that way. In Comparison test, its the Accord that usually always wins...and even in the days when the Accord ONLY made 200 hp vs. the 240 in the Accord and 225 in the Camry the Accord usually STILL won...and if it didn't it was so close with the Camry that they nearly tied (recent Edmunds.com comparo)
Now that's refinement and that's the quality of a "benchmark" sedan.
I'm not a Honda bragger (I drive a Nissan) but this is the way it almost ALWAYS turns out.
When the Accord is redesigned, it will be another 3 plus years before the "compeition" is redesigned again (except for the Malibu and Mazda6)
So as I have stated, if Honda has come through time and time again with competitive products, I'm doubting Honda will fail.
The competition will enjoy one short and sweet year of wins, but then will loose for the next three to four.
Same thing goes for the Odyssey vs. the Sieanna, Corolla vs. the Civic...and Pilot vs. the Highlander. In comparison tests the Honda counterparts usually win (except with maybe the Trucks...Ridgeline is UGLY)
But you get my drift.
If Honda plays is cards right (and avoids the styling of the Civic) the Accord will be fine...and I work for a Nissan dealership....and I'll be the first to admit that...folks really will play on the "value" card then.
I can only imagine what Sonata's will be going for about that time...$13K for a Sonata Limited?
#4513 of 12297 I see it like this...also
Jun 21, 2006 (6:40 pm)
if they can offer more horsepower and continue to IMPROVE gas mileage, I don't have a problem with it...but if it gets to a point where gas mileage suffers...THEN I'll worry about reducing the horsepower in favor of better gas mileage...
Toyota seems to have a good combo of both...I expect similar results from Honda next year.
Is the Fusion getting the 3.5 or not?
#4514 of 12297 Re: The Impala does off the 303 HP [maxamillion1]
Jun 21, 2006 (7:24 pm)
You often cite that the Camry only narrowly outpointed the Accord in the recent comparison test, however, the scores don't always tell the whole story.
The folks at Edmunds.com said themselves: "With the anticipation of parents watching their child win a spelling bee with the final letter, we watched the Camry's point total edge out the Accord's by a 0.64 margin. Despite what this might indicate, there really was no dispute regarding which of these four cars should win the comparison.
In truth, however, after the first five minutes behind the wheel of the all-new 2007 Camry, each evaluator came away with the same impression: "This is a Camry?" Every so often, an automaker produces something so extraordinary that it manages to not only eclipse its own predecessor, but also succeeds in making the competition appear obsolete."
Those are pretty strong words.
"I think they [Nissan] are waiting to see how Toyota and Honda's hybrid vehicles pan out before they get into the game. I think Nissan is ONLY using the Hybrid so that it can met some type of gas mileage requirement (or so I heard, and I work for a Nissan dealer now)"
Uhm, what? The success of the Prius, the RX-h, GS-h the Highlander Hybrid, and the wait lists for this Camry arent indication?
And actually, in the case of the Civic vs. Corolla, its the opposite scenario- the Corolla has the benefit of second release, and with the last generation, outpointed the Civic (reference: C/D comparo, Nov 2002 of 2003 models).
"If Honda plays is cards right (and avoids the styling of the Civic) the Accord will be fine...and I work for a Nissan dealership....and I'll be the first to admit that...folks really will play on the "value" card then."
Again, what? The Civic is selling over 10% better than its predecessor, has won numerous awards, from Motor Trend's Car of the Year to the first in class EVER to achieve a Gold IIHS recognition for Front, Side, and Rear impact protection. So what is the negative of the Civic....
But wait, you reminded us... this is a comparison about the Midsize Sedans.
So what's your point?
#4515 of 12297 Re: The Impala does off the 303 HP [maxamillion1]
Jun 21, 2006 (7:47 pm)
If Sonata limited is selling for $13k I would buy 10. What is wrong with that Hyundai provide decent car at a frugal price? If there are so many choices with competition isn't it good for consumers? Why are you complaining?
#4516 of 12297 And the beat goes on...
Jun 21, 2006 (8:13 pm)
Alpha...if you want to further discuss details on my theories on the STYLING of the Civic since that I find so negative with the car in my previous post...hit my e-mail, seeing as the Accord has gotten so much slack for its styling, I don't think Honda would want to risk styling like the Civic on the Accord..that was my point...
But back to the topic...my point was that typically Honda's vehicles do better in comparison to others in the class...and I will continue to believe that they will do the same thing again..they always have... Honda's have typically done VERY well in comparsion with other vehicles...not in just the midsize realm but in other classes as well.
And you are right, what Edmunds had to say about the Camry and Accord makes perfect sense, sometimes it's not about the numbers (as many a Camcordnata owner can tell you.) but when the cold data is that close, credit is still due to those who deserve it. I'm quite impressed that even despite it's age, the Accord was BARELY beaten by the Camry in a comparison test. Impressive in the least. Rather the Camry was "the winner" based on other reasoning, the fact that the Accord still came that close despite it's age is downright impressive and makes me wonder just what Honda's gonna do next.
The Prius and Highlander are in a TOTALLY different class from the Accord, Camry and Altima...my POINT was that Nissan's Altima Hybrid is simply a vehicle Nissan is using to get a few Hybrid sales here and there and that Ghosn doesn't believe in the technology. So they are "testing" the waters with a limited number of Hybrid Altimas. I won't see one in South Carolina... As one can see the Accord didn't do so hot (V6-performance based) but the Camry seems to be succesful so far. And your whole point on successful Hybrids is nice, except for the fact that Nissan would have no idea that Camry Hybrids would be on waiting list when they planned their Hybrid with Toyota.
Just because cars like the PRIUS sell, doesn't mean the comparable midsize sedans with the technology will sell as well, aka the Accord, even though it has a rather strange V6/Hybrid combo. Camry Hybrid is a success because Toyota is the leader in the technology. Nissan is just getting into it...with the use of Toyota's older system...I don't think Nissan would see the same success as Toyota, Honda or even Ford if they produced Hybrid Altimas... Further, Nissan isn't really known for gas mileage so chances are it would be a wash. Nissan is tight with the all mighty dollar, they aren't going to invest in something that they don't believe in..rather they are wrong or right.
And as far as "complaining" about 13K Sonata Limited? You won't see me complaining about one...chances are, I'll probably scoop one up for my niece...lol...because if they ever do get that cheap, I'll buy two as well. It was a joke...because can't some folks get Sonata LX's for like 17K now already?
#4517 of 12297 Re: accord [maxamillion1]
Jun 21, 2006 (8:30 pm)
The Accord hybrid is without a doubt a FLOP...but I bet the next one will be an I4 and will do better.
I have a feeling that based on the HAH experience that Honda will stay away from hybrids for larger vehicles concentrating on the HCH and the Fit hybrid.
Now for the Accord, Ody, MDX, Pilot..... diesel. Blam same savings as the hybrids with proven experience.
The really huge problem is to educate the public that it's OK and 'green' to drive a diesel. The new technology might be somewhat costly too - but then so are hybrids and the task is to reduce the cost.
Now combine both technologies and somebody has a huge jump on the market. Wanna bet 6 big companies ( MB, T, GM, H, BMW, F ) are all hiding some really interesting technology waiting for the ULSD to be available everywhere here.
#4518 of 12297 I can see your point...
Jun 21, 2006 (8:36 pm)
but one thing Honda does learn quickly...if they make a mistake with one product, but the market turns out to be a profitable or good "PR" move, they'll redo it and get it right the next time. Gen 1 Odyssey to 2 ring a bell.
#4519 of 12297 Re: Talking about a different car for a change [jrock65]
Jun 21, 2006 (8:50 pm)
Comparison shoppers may note that pricing for the 2006 Honda Accord - one of the AURA primary competitors - starts at a little over $18,000. However, the base Accord only comes with a 4-cylinder coupled to a manual transmission; the 4-cylinder automatic Accord starts at over $19,000. Meanwhile, the AURA XE comes with a standard V6 and is equipped with more standard equipment that the Accord. Honda's better equipped automatic Accord V6 starts at over $25,000."
snippet: only comes with a 4-cylinder ...Meanwhile, the AURA XE comes with a standard V6
I mentioned in a prior post that I like the look of the Aura very much and it should be a worth competitor in the field ..'.if GM doesn't screw it up.' I think they just did. IMO that have just marginalized it to the relatively small part of the midsized market that wants a V6 in lieu of the efficiency of the I4. Honda, Toyota and Nissan all sell well in excess of 60% of their vehicles as I4's. GM just told all these frugal shoppers to 'Get lost, go see the transplants' Yes there is still a large part of the market that wants V6 power and they may be able to fill the plant with V6's but GM is attempting to impose its product mentality on the market. IMO this can only end in failure or marginalizing the vehicle. I think it just became a small niche player like the Mazda's.
#4520 of 12297 Re: 2006 sonata vs 2006 accord [scape2]
Jun 21, 2006 (9:07 pm)
Yes all vehicles are safer than 20 yrs ago but there is simply no reason for the F/M twins to rank 18th out of 18 in the midsized sedan segment at the IIHS.
This is a completely new design following the Five Hundred which is ranked first in it's class.
The vehicle aside this is a massive corporate crime on the part of the product managers and plant managers and engineers at Ford to allow its new flagship midsize sedan to fail to show well. Heck it ranks below the outdated Chrysler product. Any rational buyer looking for safety will immediately eliminate the Ford entries from consideration.
If any Ford manager/engineer involved with the crash testing of the F/M twins survived this fiasco it would shock me. It makes the vehicle look unnecessarily bad>
Who wants their brand spanking new vehilce to be rated last from jump street?
#4521 of 12297 Mazda vs. Honda comparison
Jun 22, 2006 (4:31 am)
Mazda 3 vs. Honda Civic EX
Mazda 6 vs. Honda Accord EX
All 4 cylinder engines.
Which car would you choose and why?