Last post on Apr 13, 2007 at 11:55 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Subaru Legacy, Saturn Aura, Sedan
#4504 of 12297 Re: accord [maxamillion1]
Jun 21, 2006 (4:40 pm)
A someone already stated, the Impala and GXP offer 303hp for the price of an Accord EX V6. The Accord is far from the most powerful family sedan on the market. As for mileage, the Impala SS gets 18/28 which is by no means gas guzzler territory. The GM cars have the most hp in the segment, not the camry. The camry's engine is impressive but it's only 28 more hp than the GP had in 1998 and 8 more than the 2004 GP offered so pardon me if I'm not blown away.
The Aura hybrid is due out in late 2006 or ealy 2007, not a year from now. Ford has a hybrid Fusion coming for 2008. I doubt they will make the same mistake as honda and price their hybrids over $30k and gear them for performance. That is just silly. Most people are expecting the Aura hybrid to be around $25k to start and offer mileage gains similar to the Accord hybrid. I'm not going ot try to defend the Altima hybrids because Nissan is making a mistake in offering the car in limited markets. Very stupid.
The question isnt whether or not Honda will go all out, the question is whether or not it's possible to create a class dominating benchmark in today's market. The answer is no. The camry probably beats all the competition that existed when it launched, but it will hardly be considered the hands down champion once the Altima and Aura hit the streets. Even the Sebring may be competitive based on what I've read so far.
Has anyone seen the changes to the '07 Fusion? It got navigation, AWD, mp3 jack, standard side/curtain airbags and satelite radio. It really needed those changes big time but I dont understand why Ford wont offer stability on its cars.
#4505 of 12297 Re: V6s [driverdm]
Jun 21, 2006 (5:18 pm)
Objectively speaking, the Sonata 3.3L V6 is more than adequate for the needs of today's driving. The engine is smooth and extremly quite, even at full throttle.
I wonder, how many horsepowers do we need in a family sedan? Is 500hp enough?
By the way, as for this discussion, midsize sedans, I wasn't aware Toyota and Nissan, respectively, are hitting 300+hp with their offering of family sedans.
#4506 of 12297 Re: accord 
Jun 21, 2006 (5:21 pm)
I think not. The Camry MPG figures are 22/31, which considering the HP is outstanding at 268 HP. The gas mileage of DoD depends on it being babied along. The 18/28 MPG sounds good. If you want a V8 just get a Northstar if GM is your thing. Going to get 24 MPG or better without all the razzle dazzle DoD thing. My guess is that both engines achieve around the same real world gas mileage.
#4507 of 12297 Re: accord 
Jun 21, 2006 (5:26 pm)
If horsepower is the only factor considered when buying a car then we'd all own a Mustang GT. The Accord's fit, finish, and feel is superior to all in its class, and this is for a car designed 5 years ago.
Yea this sector has changed a lot since the CamCord only days, but the CamCord still dominates, and they don't have to give them away to get the sales.
The new Accord will be sweet. An Indy 500 engine wrapped up in a aircraft cockpit feeling body. Count on it.
#4508 of 12297 Re: accord 
Jun 21, 2006 (5:41 pm)
The question isnt whether or not Honda will go all out, the question is whether or not it's possible to create a class dominating benchmark in today's market. The answer is no.
The answer is YES. Honda always does very well in comparisons. Why? you might ask. Because the Accord is so well thought out. The people who do comparison tests do more than just test drive the cars. They actually test them. Experienced testers know what to look for, and what is most important to the average consumer. Honda can make the Accord as good as they need it to be. The Accord is never the smooth est riding, the quiet est, the best handling, or the best looking car in the comparisons. It usually comes out on top (or near the top) because of how it works in everyday use. The Accord just seems to find that perfect balance, and has that special feel, that others can't match. It may not win the 07 comparison tests, but it will do more than hold it's own against much newer competition. The Camry may win this year, but it's time on top will be short lived (one year).
#4509 of 12297 Re: Yea this is ridiculous [maxamillion1]
Jun 21, 2006 (6:20 pm)
BMW- for one pure status symbol. You pay alot of money for status and an unreliable vehicle. If you coulc get past the status thing... take a look at some stats of vehicles that do cost even 1/2 the price. Some out accelerate the BMW, out slalom, out brake ect for thousands less..
But I guess if you want just status.. and a car that says.. look at me! I make more money than you.. my dad didn't hug me enough.. ..
#4510 of 12297 Re: accord 
Jun 21, 2006 (6:21 pm)
the Impala SS gets 18/28 which is by no means gas guzzler territory.
If you plan on using any of that 303 hp, you will be guzzling some gas. If you're going to baby it enough to get that kind of mileage, you might as well get a 4 cyl. Only 4 cylinders will be firing anyway.
#4511 of 12297 Lets talk
Jun 21, 2006 (6:29 pm)
about HP wars.. how much HP is really enough for a family sedan? 200? 300? 500? 1000?? Its almost like the manufacturers are concentrating so hard on winning HP awards they seem to forget about functionality, ride, handling, balance.
For me, I don't need a 300HP family sedan. If I wanted that kind of power I would buy a Mustang, Charger, or soon to be Camaro. My message to manufactures.. get back to basics for the family sedan, your getting off track with all the hype over HP and 0-60 numbers. With traffic the way it is now in most major cities.. you'll never get to use it anyway..
#4512 of 12297 The Impala does off the 303 HP
Jun 21, 2006 (6:29 pm)
V8...and that in itself would turn a number of buyers away without even lookin at the gas mileage....the fact that the car has a V8 engine.
Further, I did not say the Accord was the most powerful, but that it had more horsepower than MANY of its competitors (Fusion, Sonata, Mazda6, Malibu, just to name a few)
And if you'd take the time to read my posts you'd see that I ACKNOWLEDGED that the Domestic were far ahead in the horsepower game back in the 80s and 90s...
I don't think what Nissan is doing is stupid with the Hybrid. So far Hybrids still have limited appeal...I think they are waiting to see how Toyota and Honda's hybrid vehicles pan out before they get into the game. I think Nissan is ONLY using the Hybrid so that it can met some type of gas mileage requirement (or so I heard, and I work for a Nissan dealer now)
I'm not a betting man...but I'm sure Honda is going to do what it did the last time they had to redesign a car...benchmark everybody...they always do because they get the extra year to work out the kinks and add some features.
Back when the Camry and new Altima hit the scene in 2001, EVERYBODY thought the Accord was doomed...nope...2003 came along...and Honda was once again the benchmark.
Let's be real...if Honda can design Acura's cars to at least be competitive in some shape or form with their luxury counterparts, what in the world makes you think Honda can't do the same thing...
Also, the difference between what Honda does compared to Toyota and Nissan is this...every time the Camry or Altima get's redesigned, it leapfrogs the Accord a bit...but by the time the new Accord comes out it continues ruling until the next "new" generation of cars comes out. Case in point...in just about ALL comparisons with the Accord vs. the competition it comes in first place (except: Consumer Reports and Edmunds.com test of the 'Nata V6 vs I4 Camcords and maybe one other test)
But any other comparison test done by say Car and Driver, Road and Track and Motor Trend that compares the Accord with the Camry, Altima, Sonata and others, the Accord usually comes out on top unless a new camry hits the lots...and by the next year Honda takes over again.
The Camry might be the bigger seller, but OVERALL, it's the Accord that's considered the benchmark of this class...it has almost always been that way. In Comparison test, its the Accord that usually always wins...and even in the days when the Accord ONLY made 200 hp vs. the 240 in the Accord and 225 in the Camry the Accord usually STILL won...and if it didn't it was so close with the Camry that they nearly tied (recent Edmunds.com comparo)
Now that's refinement and that's the quality of a "benchmark" sedan.
I'm not a Honda bragger (I drive a Nissan) but this is the way it almost ALWAYS turns out.
When the Accord is redesigned, it will be another 3 plus years before the "compeition" is redesigned again (except for the Malibu and Mazda6)
So as I have stated, if Honda has come through time and time again with competitive products, I'm doubting Honda will fail.
The competition will enjoy one short and sweet year of wins, but then will loose for the next three to four.
Same thing goes for the Odyssey vs. the Sieanna, Corolla vs. the Civic...and Pilot vs. the Highlander. In comparison tests the Honda counterparts usually win (except with maybe the Trucks...Ridgeline is UGLY)
But you get my drift.
If Honda plays is cards right (and avoids the styling of the Civic) the Accord will be fine...and I work for a Nissan dealership....and I'll be the first to admit that...folks really will play on the "value" card then.
I can only imagine what Sonata's will be going for about that time...$13K for a Sonata Limited?
#4513 of 12297 I see it like this...also
Jun 21, 2006 (6:40 pm)
if they can offer more horsepower and continue to IMPROVE gas mileage, I don't have a problem with it...but if it gets to a point where gas mileage suffers...THEN I'll worry about reducing the horsepower in favor of better gas mileage...
Toyota seems to have a good combo of both...I expect similar results from Honda next year.
Is the Fusion getting the 3.5 or not?