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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread - READ ONLY

12297 messages,  Last post on Apr 13, 2007 at 12:55 PM

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What is this discussion about? Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Subaru Legacy, Saturn Aura, Sedan

Messages Page 175 of 1230

#1740 of 12297 Hyundai 1998, Hyundai 2006 by pocono35

Mar 25, 2006 (10:36 am)

Taming a predisposition takes time. People see what they wanna see. Most people, when speaking of Hyundai, are speaking from a paradigm that is based on previous information, a bad experience and resulting personal perspective. It is very normal for the reality of a company and their product to be ahead of the market perception of that company and product. That is why Hyundai is spending nearly $700 million on advertisinig this year to change the perception. Hyundai knows its a long road and one has to applaud Hyundai for their peseverence and commitment. Many companies would have given up back in 1998.
 
Reality is that Hyundai and Kia are changing more rapidly than any carmaker, at any time, in automotive history.
 
Consider the JDPower Initial Quality Survey Report of 2004 which sent Ford, GM and others back to the drawing boards on initial quality. Hyundai tied Honda, beat the Toyota brand by 3 points and finished second to Lexus/Toyota combined by 1 point! Dramatic improvement and change!!! Consider the Azera model. Altho Hyundai is spending about $691 MILLION this year on advertising the Hyundai brand, the Azera is not just hype. It's a night-to-day improvement over the 'XG' and even the harshest writers are categorizing the Azera with the best from Toyota and GM. If one merely looks at the technology, performance figures and content of the Azera, any reasonable consumer will determine that Hyundai is now a legitimate world-class automaker. The Sonata is also a legitimate player. And this is the marketing brilliance in it all. Hyundai knows that Toyota, Honda, Nissan and others are rated above them. What they have sought to do, in the short-term is to meet their goals to get on people's radar. If you're not on the radar, people don't even show up to the lot. But if they get on the lot and they are categorized with Honda and Toyota, they will sell more cars. When considering the mid-size class in 2004, most would place the Camry, Accord and maybe the Altima, Taurus with them. On the bottom was the Mitsus, Malibus, Sonatas, etc. Now consider today. Only the Accord and Camry are still tops on the radar but enter Sonata. Hyundai has gone from less than 100,000 volume car to nearly 150,000 and near tier 1 in one offering. Brilliant. Many will not buy the Sonata but many now know that the Sonata is a car to consider.
Consider their new plant in Alabama. Already running at over 80% capacity, funtioning efficiently, considered the most advanced, automated autoplant in the world, the Montgomery facility by Hyundai is outshining their nearest counterpart, Nissan, in Mississippi, who is is still struggling nearly 3 years later with their quality and efficiency. To date, Nissan is (still) sending engineers to Mississippi to salvage this operation. Recently, the decision was made to cut production. At last count over 100 engineers have been 'indefinitely stationed' in Miss. Consider the Armada and brother Infiniti QX56 rated as the most unreliable vehicles in 2005. Noone would dispute the legitimacy and world-class demeanor of Nissan, but (and by pointing to these issues) I am displaying the inherent difficulties of getting these mega-operations working efficiently. Hyundai has already done it in less than a year!
 
To point to anything but the present and the future is underestimating the Koreans and their diligence to compete with the Japanese, not only in sales, but in the more subjective areas of perception and quality.
 
In 1998, Hyundai sold a measly 98,000 cars sparking debate so heated that Hyundai was pulling out of the N.American market, that Hyundai took out full-page ads in newspapers nationwide declaring their long-term commitment to this market. What followed in the Hyundai leadership was their committment to become one of the top 5 automakears in the world. Soon after, Hyundai Motor split with the conglomerate, bought Kia and hired the leaders son to rebuild. His vision from the beginning was 'better than Lexus'. Critics laughed. They laughed when Hyundai hired Finbarr O'Neill who developed the now historical and then heard of 100,000 mile warranty. Critics again stated this would 'put Hyundai under'. Since that time, Hyundai has moved from ales of 98,000 to over 700,000, quality has improved dramatically, product is now 'big-leagues' and yet there are still many whose perception of Hyundai actually lags the reality of their product offering. Think about it: from 98,000 to nearly 750,000 in 8 years! In that 8 years, Hyundai has shot past Mazda, Suburu, Mitsubishi, Volvo, BMW, Mercedes and is planning on approaching Nissan in a few short years to become the #3 import! Perception lags reality.
 
I would challenge any doubter of the Koreans, who thrive on 'living under the radar', to read the comments of Hyundai's competitors, and not the subjective advertising-driven publications or the perceptionally challenged critics. Read Lutz's comments('I fear Hyundai more than any other brand) and (the Chair ofL Toyota's comments on this conglomerate. One will detect a sense of respect and concern, not dismissal. Even Toyota's Chair sincerely respects Hyundai to the point or requesting a tour of their Ulsan(Korea) plant soon after Hyundai's quality rankings topped the Toyota brand in 2004. He offered in exchange a tour of the top Japanese Lexus plant to the Hyundai Chair. On this occassion it wasn't Hyundai that was dismissed, but Toyota when the Hyundai Chair politely declined.

#1741 of 12297 Re: I can still remember [ctalk] by bobad

Mar 25, 2006 (10:58 am)

Replying to: ctalk (Mar 25, 2006 9:35 am)
IMO, the Sonata is well built. But I won't go so far to say its Lexus like
 
Nor did I. You're trying to put words in my mouth yet again.
 
If I were a Toyota bigwig, I would bring in a Sonata and show it to the Camry designers and engineers. I would show them how close the Sonata is for $6K less money. I would tell them they had better do something about it, and quickly.

#1742 of 12297 Re: I can still remember [bobad] by ctalk

Mar 25, 2006 (11:12 am)

Replying to: bobad (Mar 25, 2006 10:58 am)
I happen to recall you saying, "I have never seen such body panel fit. Not in Mercedes, not in any other car I have examined."
 
I only used Lexus because some of its vehicles are about 10k-20k more expensive. I recall you stating, "I'm saying the fit and finish are equal to cars costing 10K-20K more."
 
Well next time, try to be more specific as to which cars the Sonata's fit and finish are equal to

#1743 of 12297 Re: Hyundai 1998, Hyundai 2006 [pocono35] by bobad

Mar 25, 2006 (11:19 am)

Replying to: pocono35 (Mar 25, 2006 10:36 am)
Excellent post pocono35.
 
I appreciate Hyundai's quest in a way that few people can. I myself have been on a campaign to bring a product (nothing you would recognize!) from worst to first, and I accomplished my goal. Nothing was going to stop me! Hyundai's commitment and efforts seem just as obsessive, and that's what is needed to compete with such great products as Nissan, Honda, and Toyota. I must confess that I may have bought my 06 Sonata partly because I understand what Hyundai is trying to accomplish. Their commitment is palpable, and that can only mean they are deadly serious about quality, value, and service. I was a little worried at first, but now I'm very confident my vehicle is worthy of comparison to the competition in every way.

#1744 of 12297 Re: Hyundai 1998, Hyundai 2006 [pocono35] by ctalk

Mar 25, 2006 (11:29 am)

Replying to: pocono35 (Mar 25, 2006 10:36 am)
I admit Hyundai has been coming out with impressive products. I'm very impressed with the new Azera, Entourage and Santa Fe. They've really come a long way.

#1745 of 12297 Sonata vs. Toyota....NOT YET by pocono35

Mar 25, 2006 (11:43 am)

If I were a Toyota bigwig, I would bring in a Sonata and show it to the Camry designers and engineers. I would show them how close the Sonata is for $6K less money. I would tell them they had better do something about it, and quickly.
 
I believe the Sonata is a competitor to the Camry, but Hyundai, with this Sonata offering, is trying to get on the radar of Toyota and Accord buyers. This is brilliant because Hyundai knows from studies it is going to take time to change perception and it won't happen with this Sonata...at least all at once. They are aiming for a Camry because the Camry is the 'undisputed benchmark' for consumer perceived quality and sales success. Hey, shoot for the best. It's a great start and the offering is a more a shot across the bow to the big-guys saying 'we're here deal with us' but a death blow to the Galant, Suzuki's and mid-size Camry wannabe's.
From what I have read from many interviews with Chung, their Chair, Hyundai's goal is 'Top Five' before 2010 coupled with sales of more expensive vehicles to increase profits. Hyundai has an uphill battle because of recent currency flucuations requiring them to get plants up and running here quickly to off-set that. He is also more concerned with 'quality results' in this campaign because Hyundai's growth is dependant on beating others who aren't focused on quality.
I believe the next 4 or 5 offerings Hyundai releases from the upcoming Santa Fe, new Elantra, RWD Lexus-Infiniti fighter or even the Entourage minivan is a shot across the bow to position them for future top five entrenchment and establishment.
 
IMO, the Azera is a shining example of what this company can do so quickly (compared to the XG) and how aggressively they will compete eventually with the establishment.

#1746 of 12297 No, not yet! by bobad

Mar 25, 2006 (12:13 pm)

Yes, I agree. Not yet.
 
If my garage burned and the insurance company said OK, you have a choice of an identically equipped Sonata LX or a Camry, I would take the Camry. I appriciate the Sonata, but I'm not a Koolaid drinker.
 
If I were offered the Sonata and $1000 cash or the Camry? Still the Camry. Sonata and $2000? I would take the Sonata and the cash! That's like saying the Camry is better than the Sonata, but not $6000 better as they are now selling. They are certainly not worth a C note extra on your monthly payment!
 
About the Alabama Hyundai plant's capacity: I bet there's room under the roof for another assembly line. I've heard they have been running at full capacity for the entire time they have been open.
 
Hey pocono35, heard anything about Hyundai entering into the pickup truck race? I have a feeling they will eventually offer pickup's based on 2 or 3 sedan/SUV bodies. If their pricing and styling are on par with the rest of their line, they could absolutely trounce Isuzu, Mazda, and Nissan.

#1747 of 12297 Re: I can still remember [lightfootfl] by fsowirles

Mar 25, 2006 (2:38 pm)

Replying to: lightfootfl (Mar 25, 2006 8:19 am)
Yes, lack of pep and not nimble. I used the words of Consumer Reports, but if you paid attention to my posts...I ahve driven my neighbors one month old Sonata on a few occasions. I gave it props, but I would not say it has pep, is gutsy, or a good cornering/handling vehicle....that is, in relation of the top end Sonata to a top end Camry, Accord, Mazda6, base Volvo S60 or mid level S40 (same price segment).

#1748 of 12297 Re: I can still remember [fsowirles] by alpha01

Mar 25, 2006 (6:55 pm)

Replying to: fsowirles (Mar 25, 2006 2:38 pm)
You should re-read the CR full test of the Sonata- it states the V6 is smooth and strong, so I'm not sure what youre talking about. They did however, "ding" the Sonata's handling.
 
Having driven the Sonata V6- its VERY quick, both it and the Accord having been tested by Car and Driver at 6.6 seconds to 60 in the Dec 2005 comparison test....Were you serious in stating that your neighbor's Sonata wasnt gutsy? What do you drive, an M5? In that frame of reference, perhaps the Sonata isnt quick. Are your sure your neighbor's isnt the 4?
 
~alpha

#1749 of 12297 Re: I can still remember [backy] by jhinsc

Mar 25, 2006 (8:31 pm)

Replying to: backy (Mar 25, 2006 8:01 am)
...It looks to me that Hyundai is fully competitive in fuel economy in the mid-sized sedan class, which we are discussing here.
 
In real world tests, the mileage from Sonata's and Azera's are coming in disappointingly low. Read the long-term test reports. The most recent update in Edmund's long term report stated the Sonata reached an new high of 23.5 mpg. That's not as good as the Accord or Camry, or even the Malibu.

Messages Page 175 of 1230

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