Last post on Apr 13, 2007 at 11:55 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Subaru Legacy, Saturn Aura, Sedan
#108 of 12297 Re: ctalk 1st of all calm down [choe13]
Jul 16, 2005 (5:04 am)
I am not an Accord or Camry fan i just feel the Accord is better then the new Sonata. I have owned a Accord in the past (1990) and tried Toyota, Chevrolet and Volkswagon from 1990 to my present car 05 EX V6. I am a very open minded, and i do like the new Sonata. What i meant by #1 competitor is #1 competiton. The Camry is a better seller then the Accord. But your right the Sonata is the Accords #1 Competition (when it comes to ratings like car and driver 10 best). I do think it has a chance to get Car and Driver 10 best next year, it is a very rounded vehicle and is in my eyes much better then the current Camry but i still think it will have a very hard time beating the Accord.
I do not think the Accord and Camry are the greatest cars in the world they are no where from perfect they have their problems for Camry it is its bland personality, for the Accord it is its styling...
I did test drive the Sonata infact my friend works at the dealer and would have gave me a great discount on the Sonata but i felt the Accord was a better fit for me because it has a sportier interior, better steering, firmer suspension and strong reputation. But the Sonata is great, it's very powerful, nice steering (better then Camry's numb feel), and nice supsension. It's a huge improvement over the previous model.
But i still think the Accord is leading (and the Camry is in sales). Hyundai has a great chance at leading its just like i said before if the Sonata is priced the same way as Honda people will most likely buy Honda. Hyundai still needs a couple years to take its image of 'Price advantage' off or it will never be as strong as Honda and Toyota are today.
I'm sorry if i came a little to hard on you, I am very open minded compared to my friends some of them dont even consider Honda because its not as reliable as Toyota . The Sonata is a well rounded vehicle, but the Accord was more to my taste and needs.
#109 of 12297 Re: Car and Driver 10 Best [Choe13]
Jul 16, 2005 (5:15 am)
Choe13 Which editor did you talk to, i'd like to ask a few questions myself.
#110 of 12297 Re: anonymousposts [choe13]
Jul 16, 2005 (8:24 am)
If the H badge on the Sonata were a Honda badge I would have a few questions for Honda. First off, there would be no manual transmission option with a sunroof. That's something Honda has offered since the mid-80's. I would also want to know where they went wrong with interior design. This is one of the weak points of the Sonata in my opinion. Don't even bother responding "I love the interior of the Sonata". I'm sure that's true but I prefer the interior of the Accord.
The Mazda3 overall is a better car than the current Civic. However, my husband can't drive the Mazda so we would still have to buy the Civic.
#111 of 12297 NvH and quality
Jul 16, 2005 (11:56 am)
good research by codata99 on the Sonata thread
"Actually the Sonata is the current benchmark in midsize class.
Honda and Toyota have a lot of catching up to do to barely match the overall performance and refinement.
The Sonata has 6,200 body welds, about TWO THOUSAND more than the Camry's(4,300).
How about paint? Matching the quality of the 18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat is simply out of the question. They don't have the Rho-dip facility. Only one other plant in N. America has one.
There are other stuff left out in the consumer brochures like the PWM-controlled enigne cooling fan because it's too technical.
It's a stepless speed control.
You're not gonna hear the fan kicking in like the Camcords even if you stick your ear close to the grille of the Sonata. The fan itself is quieter and has higher CFM spec than the Camry's.
Simply put, the current Accord and Camry is a generation behind the Sonata in NVH performance and body integrity.
Also the factory is a benchmark, it's the future of auto plants. No fork-lift trucks are there. Material and parts handling is completely automated.
The plant requires only 2,000 workers for 300,000 annual production.
Honda's Alabama plant needs 4000 for their 300,000 max. output. Two thousand more people...think about that.
"One benefit to the Montgomery operation is the fact that the Sonata has been in production in Korea since September, 2004. Not only has this afforded the Hyundai America people an opportunity to become familiar with the process (the processes and equipment used in the two plants are common), but Krafcek observes that generally, the six months before a vehicle is launched is the time during which there is a flurry of issues that arise and need to be addressed and that the number of these issues then diminishes in the months after launch. Consequently, he maintains, the six months of production in Korea will help the people in Montgomery achieve a stable operation."
If you're considering Sonata, don't worry about the quality.
They are aiming for an IQS score of 80 PP100 for 2006 Sonata. Good enough to put it in top 3 in premium midsze category, I think. "
#112 of 12297 road and track also praises the Sonata
Jul 16, 2005 (1:47 pm)
They are the same company road and track and car and driver that is, but have two different way of explaining this car. There are also a couple of statements that say in the terms of " something the accord and camry could not achieve" . Warm up to hear alot of those statements
#113 of 12297 Re: Sonata as new benchmark. No way [choe13]
Jul 16, 2005 (2:03 pm)
I too commend codata99 for his excellent research. I trust that it is completely accurate and have no dispute over his findings. However, like he said "it's too technical". I highly doubt many consumers will be persuaded to purchase a sonata simply because it has more body welds, uses a higher quality paint from an "18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat" and has a "PWM-controlled enigne cooling fan". While these impressive features may cause a select group automotive engineers and car fanatics to salivate, the average consumer is more concerned with the fundamentals. I highly doubt that this "PWM-controlled enigne cooling fan" will translate into noticeable and tangible improvements in engine noise, nor will more body welds which do admittedly give the car more body rigidity be noticed by the average consumer. As for the "18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat" giving the sonata a sheen that is noticeably superior, are you kidding me? However, if one can show that all the above innovations are noticed by the average consumer then I will be the first to concede my point. As for the factory being a benchmark, while I have no doubt that it is true, will hardly be a compelling selling point for consumers. Should I really care that my accord took more workers to build? Where I feel the sonata has failed, despite having some new technical innovations, isn't clearly differentiating itself from its competitors. For a supposedly next-generation car the sonata offers precious little more (if at all) in the way of vehicle performance, safety, features and amenities. Having read many of the reviews and test driven the new sonata there's nothing to convince me that the sonata is a next-generation vehicle that is head and shoulders above industry standards like the camry and accord. It has reasonably strong performance, is well equipped at all levels and is quite spacious and comfortable. However, the same can be said of both the accord and camry (well the camry falls slightly short in performance). In such a competitive market the sonata failed to establish itself as the new class leader. It is merely a worthy competitor. The one key selling point of the sonata, which I suspect hyundai supporters will bring up is its excellent price. While this may entice a few buyers away who would otherwise have chosen the accord or camry, hyundai has just reinforced its image as a lower-cost alternative to the accord or camry. What the sonata needed to do was to market itself as not only a lower cost vehicle but as the new class leader which as added bonus also happened to have a lower price. I find it disappointing that hyundai is merely content to position itself as being on par with the camry and accord albeit at a lower price. Brand loyalty is a definite factor for many consumers in purchasing a new car and Hyundai has failed to do enough with its sonata to convince many accord and camry loyalists to make the switch. Toyota and Honda are still PERCEIVED to make better cars even though this may no longer be true. The 06 sonata needed to be a killer breakout vehicle that would leave no doubt in any consumer's mind of its superiority. The 06 sonata is not this car. Many people find the sonata's exterior and interior design to be rather average (of course this is subjective but the sonata just seems rather blah to me). As well, its mileage is not very impressive. These points have been done to death and I apologize for rehashing them but the fact that these points are brought up at all indicates that the sonata is not the revolutionary vehicle it so needed to be. The 06 sonata should have been able to silence any and all critics (ok well at least most). Some might think that I have unreasonable expectations of the sonata. But since Hyundai is still perceived to make inferior vehicles to toyota and honda (which I disagree with, they do make fine vehicles), the sonata needed to be the car equivalent of the second coming of christ (just kidding, well sort of ). What I fear may happen is when the 07 camry and 08 accord redesigns come out, the sonata may get left behind in the shuffle. Unfortunately the sonata, while a fine vehicle came out a little too late. Worthy competitor. Certainly. Lower priced but equally well equipped vehicle. Most assuredly. New class leader and industry benchmark. Hardly.
#114 of 12297 Re: Feature content for the money [ctalk]
Jul 16, 2005 (2:11 pm)
I've ridden in but not driven an '05 Acord. Compared to my '05 GLS Special Value trim, the Acord did not have an advantage in quality, features or ride. I don't know about the safety issue and don't know if the Honda has side air bags. The '05 handles fine, looks great, rides super AND everything fits like it is supposed to.
Resale value compared to MSRP will be lower on the Sonata than the Acord. However, resale compared to actual purchase price will be close (Sonata may even come out ahead). I plan to keep the car at least 6 years.
Does the Acord have heated seats, homelink mirror, auto climate control, CD & cassette, heated out side mirrors and many other features? I don't know, am not being smarta**. But feature for feature, the '05 GLS SV stacks up great against any non-premium midsize (probably does well against many of the premiums also). Leather seats & sunroofs don't excite me, but I could have had both for about $1400 additional.
$4 to $5,00 less for the Hyundai vs Honda. I didn't have to think too hard. (Don't judge the '05 Sonata by the GL or even the GLS.) 0 to 60 doesn't turn me on, as long as the car has adequate power. I mean what's the difference between 8.7 and 7.9 seconds in regular driving? I don't know Honda's rating but would guess it's no faster than 7.9.
#115 of 12297 Re: anonymousposts [anonymousposts]
Jul 16, 2005 (2:15 pm)
Here's a few questions that I would ask Honda about the Accord:
* Why did you make the control layout on the center stack so darn complex?
* Why can't you equip the driver's seat of a car that list for over $23,000 with something better than a simple up/down adjustment for the seat bottom?
* When are you going to ditch the mouse-fur cloth interior of the Accord EX with something a little classier, and more befitting its price?
* Why, after seven generations of Accord, haven't you figured out how to make a good-handling car that doesn't make you feel every little imperfection on the roadway?
* Why can't you back up your reputation for quality with a warranty that lasts more than 3 years, like almost all of your competitors do?
#116 of 12297 Re: Feature content for the money [bhmr59]
Jul 16, 2005 (2:19 pm)
Car and Driver measured 7.0 seconds 0-60 for the Sonata LX. Hyundai itself claims 7.7 seconds 0-62 mph, which is probably more realistic for most drivers (those C/D testers use a few tricks to get the fastest 0-60 times that few everyday drivers would employ).
#117 of 12297 Re: Sonata as new benchmark. No way [ctalk]
Jul 16, 2005 (2:54 pm)
You've illustrated exceptionally well my earlier point that the Sonata needs to walk on water to impress some people. The fact that it is the undisputed class benchmark for interior room, safety features, warranty (tied with the Optima and Galant, but it's a far superior car to those), and features-for-the-dollar isn't enough. There's a few other things too, such as, how many other cars in this class have a 5-speed autostick? How many offer the Sonata LX's blend of power, handling, and ride quality? How many cars in this class have as classy an exterior as the Sonata? (Hint: not the Accord, Camry, or Malibu. Maybe the Altima, except for its weak nose.)
As for the future, don't forget that Hyundai still has some tricks up its sleeve waiting in the wings with the Sonata, e.g. the adaptive rear suspension and the 3.8L V6 from the Azera. And shortly after the new Accord comes out for '08, the Sonata will be due for its mid-life refresh. Recall what Hyundai did with the '02 Sonata: almost a complete restyle, engine upgrades, updated interior.