Last post on Apr 13, 2007 at 11:55 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Subaru Legacy, Saturn Aura, Sedan
#10626 of 12297 Re: ... [driverdm]
Jan 03, 2007 (10:20 am)
Uh-oh for Ford...
Ford sold less 500s this year, despite AWD option for it. The Fusion being its first full year its too soon to tell what will happen in 2007, my guess its gonna drop in its 2nd year. The only reason Ford sold more cars in 2006 than 2005 is because the Taurus was still in production feeding rental fleets. 2007 will be a bad year for Ford.
Jan 03, 2007 (10:31 am)
What people "need" has NOTHING to do with it. No one NEEDS a 250 HP V6 Accord, either. Many now want to buy cars with AWD.
I don't want to pay for AWD, I'd rather have ESC. But were I a manufacturer, I more likely want to offer AWD as it is more profitable (I assume) and (I would guess) in greater demand than ESC.
I may think buyers are foolish for demanding AWD and not caring about ESC. But if that is the case, and I am a manufacturer, I'm certainly going to meet their demands, if I can do it profitably. Just as I am going to meet their foolish demands for a 250 HP V6 in a front wheel drive sedan, if there are extra profits to be made by doing so.
#10628 of 12297 Re: ... [captain2]
Jan 03, 2007 (10:33 am)
"NYC area or Mid Atlantic states, no."
I beg to differ. The average annual snowfall in New York City is about 30 inches. Twice in the last ten years we've gotten that much in a single storm, and you can count on at least one 8-10 inch storm annually. The terrain is very hilly in a lot of places, even close to sea level.
So even if you boil down the benefits of AWD to just being able to get started on a snowy day (there's much more to it than that, imo), it's definitely worth it to NY-area residents who can't miss work.
In fact, during the blizzard of 2005 (almost a year ago), no non-AWD cars could get out of our parking garage for two days. It's a subterranean garage, with the exit on the "roof", and anything greater than a 3-4 inch snowfall is a big problem for the super because he and his crew have to shovel it by hand. My wife and I gave a bunch of people rides to their shifts at her hospital.
I feel badly now that we didn't ask for contributions to offset the "penalty" we paid for having AWD. Maybe I'll do that the next time we have a big snow.
#10629 of 12297 Re: ... [smittynyc]
Jan 03, 2007 (10:51 am)
you can count on at least one 8-10 inch storm annually
wow - and for that one storm every year you are wanting to go out and pay that much more for a car (both in price and operational cost) for something that might help you one or two days out of 365? Having grown up in the Boston area, I will contend to you that getting around in snow is an infrequent occurrence there as well, and they might see an annual average double that of NYC. Besides that, I was under the impression, that nobody in 'the City' actually owned cars - a place where FE is measured in gallons/mile..
#10630 of 12297 Re: AWD and "needs" [jeffyscott]
Jan 03, 2007 (11:19 am)
"What people "need" has NOTHING to do with it. No one NEEDS a 250 HP V6 Accord, either. Many now want to buy cars with AWD."
If you don't tell me what I *need* in a car, I'll refrain from telling you your needs.
My requirements are very different from yours even in the same segment.
#10631 of 12297 Re: ... [captain2]
Jan 03, 2007 (11:26 am)
"wow - and for that one storm every year you are wanting to go out and pay that much more for a car (both in price and operational cost) for something that might help you one or two days out of 365?"
Yes. If you're a surgeon, or an emergency room doctor, or an emergency services worker, or someone who literally can't miss work unless he or she is dead, you pay that "penalty" and you don't think twice about it. Or if you live on a steep hill, or a street that doesn't get plowed right away, and you don't feel like taking sick days every time it snows.
(I guess you could always count on a neighbor w/AWD, though.)
If you think that inclement winter weather is an infrequent occurrence in Boston, we must have wildly different definitions of what constitutes "infrequent". Or maybe you rode in the trunk as a kid and couldn't see what was going on outside?
Footnote: there are a little less than 2 million passenger vehicles registered to residents of New York City.
#10632 of 12297 Re: AWD and "needs" [jeffyscott]
Jan 03, 2007 (11:29 am)
the difference here is that one investment (AWD) will help you get around in bad conditions, the other (ESC (esp when combined with TRAC)) will hurt. The ESC can certainly make a car safer but in no way is it going to improve anything on snow covered roads - 2 different things to spend money on. You are right about 'needing' a 250hp Accord, except for the fact that, all else being equal, a more powerful car is also a safer car.
#10633 of 12297 Re: ... [smittynyc]
Jan 03, 2007 (11:41 am)
maybe what you really need then is a 4wd Jeep - just in case. I am classifying as 'infrequent' as those number of times that you can't drive because you don't specifically have a 4WD or AWD vehicle, as opposed to your 10 inch snowstorm which most drivers (who see that a lot more than once a year) would handle without a problem in a 'normal' FWD or RWD vehicle, plows or no plows.
#10634 of 12297 It's a Minor factor
Jan 03, 2007 (12:16 pm)
For me, having AWD is almost meaningless- maybe something else to go wrong later on. And I grew up in snowy Buffalo, New York and my Father's GM cars were RWD with snow tires. And now living in the Washington, DC area, when it snows, the already bad traffic gets so much worse that I would rather stay home. Once every few years, we get really big snowfalls and then the people with 4wd trucks and SUVs go out (maybe to show off) and more than once I had to help push those big vehicles out when they got stuck. No thanks, KISS (keep it simple stupid) for me.
#10635 of 12297 Re: It's a Minor factor [lweiss]
Jan 03, 2007 (12:43 pm)
All of this is pretty much a matter of taste. Sure, there are plenty of snow days where I could probably get by with bald summer tires on a '76 Nova. But will I get by easier with AWD on those days? I think so.
And I think the flatness of Buffalo and DC weakens your argument a little bit. Hills really accentuate the strengths of AWD.