Last post on May 27, 2009 at 4:34 PM
You are in the Ford Mustang
What is this discussion about?
Ford Mustang, Pontiac GTO, Coupe, Convertible
#452 of 2056 Re: stang22 [stang22] Graphicguy
May 05, 2005 (4:07 pm)
Stang22, grahpicguy, I had a 2005 Mustang, IT was a Lemon. Bought back under the lemon law. The day I got it the check engine light came on, a bad omen. O2 sensor. Rattles, squeaks that couldn't be fixed. Very poor quality. I had the gas tank filling problem. Pretty embarassing to struggle filling the tank on your new car! It looked quite good on the flatbed, the car was at the dealer almost more then I had it. Obviously a bad one, I'm sure not all stangs are like that. I have owned ones previously. Also remember the Stang starts at $14k cheaper then the GTO so obviously they are going to sell more. GTO doesn't have a cheaper V6 model to sell, otherwise it wouldn't be a GTO without the V8.
It's going to take more then just the new Mustang to turn Ford around. The 1964 GTO didn't have the looks either... If you look at the 1964 GTO, nothing special styling wise, just a big 2 door Lemans rebadged as a GTO with bigger, V8, badges, wheels etc. Some of those 1960's GTO's don't look that great styling wise either. Musclecar concept is to shove a Big V8 with lots of horsepower into a midszied 2 door body, rear drive, manual trans option etc.
For those that say the GTO isn't a real GTO, got news for you, it's the most POWERFULL Gto ever made. Only to have 400hp. Most powerfull GTO of the 1960's/1970's only made 370hp stock and that was PRE SAE hp. Which really means about 300 instead of 370 by today's standards! Yes I am of the baby boomer generation and remember the 1960's car as a kid when they were new.
This GTO resembles the other Pontiacs just like the 1964 did! from the front! Nothing wrong with that. I can tell from far away that this GTO is a Pontiac easily with the grille, etc.
To each their own!
My 2005 mustang was a
#453 of 2056 Re: stang22 [stang22] Graphicguy [danman]
May 05, 2005 (4:43 pm)
Nice try,but it didn't work!!! Mustang sold 200,000 units first year because the looks are awesome,the power is great,the nostalgic look is there from the hay day of the 60's!!! Everyone loves it,well at least 200,000 people,and they all can't be wrong!!! New gto,can't claim any of that fame,except it has a 400 hp vette engine,an engine which is not even exclusive to just the gto!! Nice try but you lose again!!!good luck with your mondero though,you'll need it!!!!!
#454 of 2056 Re: stang22 [stang22] Graphicguy [danman]
May 05, 2005 (4:56 pm)
Sorry to hear about your 'Stang. Someone here had their GTO bought back because of a lot of troubles with it. IIRC, I think it was Robert. No car is immune if you happen to get a bad one.
Personally, I think they "heydey" of the GTO styling was the late 60s...not the mid 60s.
#455 of 2056 Re: Ford isn't doing much better then GM graphicguy [graphicguy]
May 05, 2005 (5:12 pm)
Graphicguy---You rule buddy!!! At least someone on this forum seems to understand successful marketing!!! I totally agree with your thinking!!! That's all I've been trying to say all along,FORD went to the people,got the Mustang they want,and Ford hit a grand slam!! Killer styling-true retro-muscle car with 60's look! Great performance from an engine designed for the mustang,and a unbeatable price!!!Over 200,000 orders first year alone!! Wait till shelby Mustang comes out!!!! gto on the other hand was a great car and great name brand,that gm tried to remake on their own thoughts, instead of the great folks that remembered the gto of the 60's and tried to hit a home run and Struck-out instead!!! Car won't last long on market,they didn't ask the people what they wanted,took pre-existing car and dropped a vette engine in it,badged it and hoped to strike gold like the 60's---but it didn't look like the 60's look gto-its really too bad,because I really like the way the gto looked back in the day,this so called new one just doesn't cut it,and sales reflect it!! Mustang wins again!!!!!And again!!!
#456 of 2056 Re: Ford isn't doing much better then GM graphicguy [stang22]
May 06, 2005 (5:01 am)
stng22....why thank you! Having been a GM employee at one time (long time ago), been involved as a partial owner of a business, and more importantly, a car nut, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure this out. Now, I'm simplifying a very complex situation regarding all of GM, basic business "smarts" don't change.
Something I never could understand, particularly about American car companies, why they don't use the tremendous amount of data that's available to them in the form of their millions of customers. Of course, you can say that about any business.
In the case of the Mustang, Ford went out of their way to find out what the public wanted in the new Mustang. First and foremost, people wanted a modern iteration of what the Mustang stood for styling wise....that is a long hood and short rear. It was also clear that no one wanted to give up the traditional Mustang "look". After asking the owners what they favorite design cues were, they borrowed from the most classic ones and updated the look. That's been a success. Whether you want performance or just "the Mustang look", Ford had something everyone liked because they asked what the consuner wanted. Inside and out, the look is pure Mustang. Guaging the reactions wherever I drive mine, Ford got it right with the interior and the exterior.
Then, aside from the good looks, performance is a legacy for the Mustang. They endowed it with a very good performing base model. They added the GT for the traditional performance buyer (more customers than Ford anticipated). Ford, with plain old good engineering, did a great job with the solid rear axle...to the point that IRS wasn't needed....neither was its weight or added complexity. Plus, the solid rear is sturdier (for those who would take their Mustang to the track) than an IRS set-up.
One of the biggest complaints of the Fox based Mustang was it's lack of a solid feeling. Ford took a very solid Lincoln LS base platform, then highly modified it for Mustang use. The result was a very solid automobile. They followed up with great ergonomics, a shifter/clutch that feels like it learned some lessons from Mazda, and an engine that his big HP and big torque, then they made it sound great.
Finally, Ford priced the Mustang where the vast majority of the public would find it to be worthwhile.
Compare and contrast.....GM didn't ask anyone what they thought the GTO should or should not be. In typical GM arrogance, they foisted a rebadged Australian car on their customer base and tried to market it as the "new GTO". While no one can debate the merits of the LS2 engine, everything else seemed to be "less well thought out" for the American market. I don't know if it's a weight issue or a shift/clutch issue (probably a combination of many things) but performance should have been much better, instead of almost identical to the Mustang GT. It's also clear that hanging a Pontiac nose on an Australian car does not make a GTO. Adding to the "cobbled together" feeling is the fact that the General didn't even bother to think about little things like having brake lights on both the spoiler and the rear deck, gave me the feeling that this wasn't a GTO, but something GM rushed to market.
That's not to say the GTO doesn't have its merits. From my test drives, I found it fast and comfortable (shifter, clutch, steering aside). Driving the GTO and the Mustang GT told me volumes about how Ford listened to their customers and GM just gave the GTO a "take it or leave it" short shrift. As most said, GM didn't do anything to help the cause by leaving the GTO out there to dangle when it came to marketing it, either.
#457 of 2056 Re: Ford isn't doing much better then GM graphicguy [graphicguy]
May 06, 2005 (8:12 am)
graphicguy- your my hero man,finely someone who makes sense!!! Unfortunately gm under-estimated the power of the public with their suggestions and influences,that they could have contributed to the gto market,after all, who are the people---Hello--they are only the ones who can make or break your product--Hello again gm--anybody home!!! Anyhow,all companies have fallen,one time or another to this; because of communication, or should I say, lack of communication, they all have fallen to the Corporate GREED Factor,where you basically get by with what you have,a pre-existing model,and add a few badges from a known cool car of the past,and a engine from a different model,and WAHLA---instant gto--the public won't know-they'll fall for it,after all its a gto---Big mistake,public is alot smarter than that,and Ford is proof of that ,with what they have done with the 05 Mustang GT!!!! We all here can debate this to the cows come home,but the sales numbers don't lie--so all-in-all,WE can only hope that all corporate companies can learn from this valuable lesson! Mustang -you win!!! gto-we haven't given up on you,your name alone deserves another chance to get it right-we need to take you back and start over, and ask the public what they want in style,design,and performance and I guarentee you on that day 200,000 gto's will be sold in their fist year also!! Hang in their,we just need to voice our concerns to corporate America!!!Power to the People!!!
#458 of 2056 Re: stang22 [stang22]
May 06, 2005 (10:47 am)
Guess you're talking to me. I made no comment on your comparisons between the Mustang and GTO because, even though you're new here, we have been hashing this out for probably six months. You have your opinion and I have mine. You have the car that you want and I have the car I want. End of story. The only thing new in your post was about the 300C. And that's what I commented on.
And while I am at it, the GTO doesn't look like a cavalier. That's a tired old putdown. If you are going to insult the GTO, at least come up with something fresh. Besides, the GTO looks just like the Grand Prix. And that's according to none other than the gguy and a few others. Yep, it's just a generic looking Pontiac. I own both cars so as soon as I find someone with a scanner, I will post pictures of the GTO and Grand Prix side by side so you guys will be able to tell the difference.
#459 of 2056 sputterguy
May 06, 2005 (11:09 am)
Actually, I think gguy DID post some pictures of the GTO and a late 90's vintage Grand Prix. Yes, there are differences; however (in all honesty), I think they look a lot more alike than the current '05 Mustang looks like a '67-'68 Mustang.
One thing for certain however; the whole style issue has been beat into the ground. You know, you could turn this whole 'style' issue to your favor by theorizing that GTO buyers are more interested in substance over style and Mustang buyers are more interested in style over substance. I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory, but it is apparent that some posters appear to be locked in on 'style' to the exclusion of virtually all else.
#460 of 2056 Re: Ford isn't doing much better then GM graphicguy [stang22]
May 06, 2005 (12:29 pm)
...or maybe the thinking was "Hey, our Aussie division has this really fast, well built coupe that we could bring over here and sell a few of." "What's the development cost on that?" "Uh, approximately nothing" "Go ahead then"
What's wrong with offering the public another fast car? Especially one that offers about the best $/hp ratio on the market. If all GM cars were as well put together as the GTO, they wouldn't be struggling with the crappy quality reputation they have.
#461 of 2056 Rant, Rant, Rant
May 06, 2005 (1:02 pm)
People keep stating that Ford listened to its customers when they built the new Mustang. I agree with that. Did Ford listen to anybody when they came out with the Mercury Murader? Obviously not. Gm listened to their customers when they designed the new C6. Virtually all customer issues were addressed.
One cannot make general statements based on only part of the story. Compare and contrast as you like but just choosing two examples to make a general statement about how a company listens to its customers is misleading. Post #460 sums up why the GTO is here; I suppose some here just wish it never came over. Well, that would leave the happy buyers of the GTO without. Remember, Hammen2 had a lemon GTO, but got another one and seems to be happy. What more could Pontiac ask of its customers?