Last post on May 27, 2009 at 4:34 PM
You are in the Ford Mustang
What is this discussion about?
Ford Mustang, Pontiac GTO, Coupe, Convertible
Mar 08, 2006 (7:28 pm)
Wow, you guys were pretty busy there for awhile, although sometimes a little off topic. In replying to some of the responses to my previous post #1901, I will post factual information from my personal experiences with regard to the GTO vs. Mustang GT comparisons.
First, I am not partial to any auto manufacturer. Am I proud to own a 2005 GTO? You bet! I would be proud to own a 2005 Mustang GT also. I chose the GTO over the Mustang GT for three basic reasons, (1) the GTO has noticeably better acceleration than the Mustang GT, (2) the interior of the GTO was much more pleasing to me than the Mustang GT (the GTO is a daily driver for me, so this was important), and (3) the perceived value for the money I spent (when I purchased my GTO, the price was comparable between the two when the Mustang GT was comparably equipped with the GTO - GTO $28,900, Mustang GT $29,000). Yea, I don't know where people are getting up to a $3K - $5K difference in the price of these two vehicles, but these were the actual lowest negotiated prices that I got from the four dealers (two Ford and two Pontiac) that I visited.
Second, as far as dependability, I have not heard of any serious issues with the 2005 GTO. I have 3,300 miles on mine and, so far, this car has been completely trouble free. I also have a friend who has a 2005 Mustang GT. While he has slightly under 10,000 miles, his car has been in the shop three times (clutch, rough idle and squeaks/rattles). I have driven and rode in his car enough to know that it is not as quiet as my GTO (it has several squeaks and rattles inside and out that have not been able to be fixed). The Mustang's ride is not as smooth and the Mustang seems to have an understeer problem in hard cornering compared to the GTO. If anything, the GTO tends more to oversteer in hard cornering which can be quite fun to correct with a punch of the throttle.
Third, as far as gas mileage, I consistently get in the 19's driving approximately 50/50 highway/city with my foot in it quite often. I have gotten as high as 25 cruising 80 mph on the highway. My friend's Mustang GT consistently gets in the 18's and he claims there is no way I can get 25 cruising 80 mph on the highway (so I assume he has never gotten 25 out of his Mustang).
Fourth, as far as performance (and I know there are a wide variety of definitions for performance), I consider acceleration to be a significant performance issue. We have a local dragstrip in KC where local guys can bring their daily drivers or whatever and compete. My best 1/4 mile time is 13.12 107.9 mph. My friend's best time in his Mustang GT is 13.82 102.1 mph. We have raced head-to-head several times. I have beaten him giving 6 car lengths. In my opinion, beating someone in the 1/4 mile after giving a 6 car length headstart is getting pretty close to "blowing their doors off".
I know a lot of people look at the GTO and say it has been a failure for GM. Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to blame the GTO when the UAW will only allow GM to import a very limited number of these vehicles into the United States. There is absolutely no GM advertising dollars that have been spent on the GTO. Have you ever seen a television advertisement for the GTO? There isn't even a glossy brochure that you can pick up for the GTO. I know people that didn't even know GM was making the GTO again. Perhaps if the GTO was assembled in the USA by the UAW and GM would have put up the advertising dollars that Ford has for the Mustang, it could have been a much bigger prize for GM. I bet you could sell a few of the GTO's in Australia for less than $30K, considering the Monaro (Australian GTO) sells for about twice that amount (and doesn't even come with the 6.0 LS2 as an option).
Yea, I'm sure the Mustang GT owners are pretty happy to say Bye Bye to the GTO in this forum because they sure can't say Bye Bye to the GTO on the streets.
#1955 of 2056 Re: Back To the Topic [whatsachevy]
Mar 08, 2006 (9:46 pm)
The GTO does have better acceleration and a more finished interior than a Mustang GT. However, there are plenty of stock 5-Speed GTs that are getting mid-13s.
The 5k price differential between the two cars is based on Edmund's nationwide average price data. Some will pay more and some less.
Secondly, the reliability data comes from Consumer Reports which has thousands of members contributing data. When you factor in the sales price difference, the significantly lower reliability of the GTO, and the manufacturer's suggestion for high octane gas, the average cost of ownership for the GTO is way above the Mustang.
Thirdly, I get 19 MPG in my 5-Speed Mustang GT in nearly all City driving and have seen 23-25 while doing 85 up the East Coast (Shh....please don't tell Smokey!)
Fourth, comparing one owner's anecdotal experience doesn't invalidate the overwhelming body of evidence to the contrary on these points. I picked the Mustang so I could use the money I saved to personalize the interior and exterior as well as ramp up the performance. The Mustang GT doesn't need much to meet and exceed the stock GTO's numbers.
Lastly, there is no disputing the GTO has been a sales failure, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad car. Unlike the Mustang, the new Goat rarely gets people's interest. It didn't fail because of advertising; it failed because they stuck a classic American Muscle Car name on an Australian Sports Coupe. The Holden Monaro is a great car, but it just doesn't capture the feel of the Goat for the vast majority of people.
#1956 of 2056 Re: Back To the Topic [whatsachevy]
Mar 09, 2006 (6:09 am)
... the Mustang seems to have an understeer problem in hard cornering compared to the GTO. If anything, the GTO tends more to oversteer in hard cornering which can be quite fun to correct with a punch of the throttle. ...
I gotta admit. You almost had me until you said that BS. You do not correct oversteer with a "punch of the throttle," unless your idea of correcting is throwing it into a spinout. I call BS on the rest of your story, and here's why:
... I have beaten him giving 6 car lengths. ...
That's total BS right there! Your friend must be one of (if not THE) worst drivers out there. There's NO WAY a GTO will beat an '05 Mustang GT in the 1/4 mile after spotting it 6 cars. Heck, the GTO doesn't even beat the '05 GT by 6 cars in a straight up 1/4 mile race. So this could be 1 of a few things. 1) Your friend has an older Mustang GT and you're embellishing on your story. 2) Your GTO isn't stock. 3) Your friend can't drive for s##t.
... considering the Monaro (Australian GTO) sells for about twice that amount (and doesn't even come with the 6.0 LS2 as an option). ...
You're right, considering that it comes standard.
#1957 of 2056 Re: Back To the Topic [vppreacher]
Mar 09, 2006 (6:17 am)
Well said well said. I have to agree with vp. Chevy, you cannot place your facts on the ability of just your friend to drive the car, nor on just the one car itself.
As vp brought out, there is a tremendous amount of information regarding each vehicle.
As far as gas mileage goes, again, you base that statement on the ASSUMPTION that your friend has never gotten that. Maybe he has, or maybe not, but that doesn't mean that its not possible.
Just today in fact, I was trying to see exactly what I get in gas mileage. Even with all the work that I have done, don't forget about the 4.10 gears, we all know that with gears comes a loss of gas mileage, I actually average 20.4 mpg going 85-90mph down the turnpike. Sure that is lower then your 25, but when you consider the work I have done, I think that's pretty damn good lol.
One more thing. About your friends car having problems. Well, what year is his? Was his one of the first ones made, because it is true, they had their problems. What I'm trying to get at is that most cars, when they first come out, usually have some problems. I mean, take the GTO when in first got released again. It had to be redesigned again for the next year...that's pretty serious. Ford is having incredible sales with a car now, that even after its 1st year, hasn't had to go back to the drawing board and given more power, or added styling ques, or dual exhaust to make it sell better. That right there should speak for itself.
#1958 of 2056 distance cruising comfort, mustang vs. goat?
Mar 09, 2006 (6:30 am)
i just got back from a distance cruise with goat, fenway park to ft myers & back. WOW is it comfy for a long cruise, significantly better than my passat TDI. goat got 23.5 mpg at typical 79.9 mph compared to the passat's ~33 mpg at slightly faster average speeds cross-country last summer.
i wonder how mustang GT compares to goat for long distance interstate cruising comfort? have any of you compared?
(to me, long distance means >1000 miles).
also after 2800 miles , near the end of the return trip, some guy in CT with a sweet-looking blue modded previous-gen mustang GT insisted on some "demonstrations" on I-395 after he entered the freeway. when he saw my goat, he did a typical move that i see from so many other drivers "inspired" to make bonehead moves due to seeing my goat. he cut across two lanes to get in front of me, but he needn't have done that. i always yield to traffic which is ahead of me, so i let him in no prob. later when traffic opened up, at 70 mph he dropped down a gear & goosed it and i dropped to 5th & goosed. he was fast but he couldn't pull away and we both backed off quickly for safety of other traffic. i won't mention the peak speed we achieved there. his mustang clearly had some sort of nonfactory exhaust, and i think no cats either. also he had some sort of intake/hirise hood, not sure if that was just an intake or was a blower too. i guess if it was a blower maybe i wouldn't have been able to keep up with him... i'm not a ford guy but gotta admit mustangs in that metallic blue color look fantastic, almost as good as blue Z28s or blue vettes!
#1959 of 2056 Re: Back To the Topic [whatsachevy]
Mar 09, 2006 (6:35 am)
"I know a lot of people look at the GTO and say it has been a failure for GM. Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to blame the GTO when the UAW will only allow GM to import a very limited number of these vehicles into the United States."
This point would have some validity if the limited number of cars imported were snatched up as soon as they hit the dealer lots. This isn't the case. Despite the limited number, the cars still languish on the lots. I don't see how having more cars to sell would help improve sales.
What is telling is that you picked up an '05 GTO for under $29k which had an MSRP over $32k. With few cars imported and HIGH demand, the dealers would be getting closer to (or over) MSRP. Yet despite the low numbers imported, the cars are still going for invoice (or substantially less).
Anyway you spin it, the sales numbers indicate a failure from a corporate standpoint.
#1960 of 2056 Re: distance cruising comfort, mustang vs. goat? [elias]
Mar 09, 2006 (6:36 am)
Let me assure you, they do quite well in long drives. I have just hit 39,000 miles on my 05, and some have been long trips, and I love it.
#1961 of 2056 Re: Back To the Topic [tayl0rd]
Mar 09, 2006 (12:46 pm)
"I gotta admit. You almost had me until you said that BS. You do not correct oversteer with a "punch of the throttle," unless your idea of correcting is throwing it into a spinout."
Obviously, you haven't done much driving with your rear end chasing your front end. If the rear end is hanging out, you aim the front wheels in the direction you want to go and spin the rear tires as fast as you can. If you do not accelerate, the rear tires will indeed continue to slide sideways and that is why you spinout. Yes, I have turned them all the way around, but your best bet is still with your foot mashed all the way down (on the gas, not the brake). The only way to correct understeer is to let off and drift or brake early and try to set your car up to enter a turn with the back end already trying to hang out.
"That's total BS right there! Your friend must be one of (if not THE) worst drivers out there. There's NO WAY a GTO will beat an '05 Mustang GT in the 1/4 mile after spotting it 6 cars. Heck, the GTO doesn't even beat the '05 GT by 6 cars in a straight up 1/4 mile race. So this could be 1 of a few things. 1) Your friend has an older Mustang GT and you're embellishing on your story. 2) Your GTO isn't stock. 3) Your friend can't drive for s##t."
We are talking a 2005 Mustang GT which is completely stock and a 2005 GTO which is completely stock. You say it must be the driver. Huh? My best time in his Mustang GT is 13.87. His best time in my GTO is 13.20. I would say based on that, our driving capabilities appear to be pretty even. I have yet to see a stock 2005 Mustang GT that recorded a 1/4 mile time in 13.50 (at least not at the dragstrip). I also did not say that I beat him everytime by 6 car lengths. However, at 100 mph, a tenth is worth about 3/4 of a car length. I can beat him all day long by a half second to 8 tenths (approximately 4-6 car lengths). Since you must be such a superior driver to us, pick a Sunday and bring on your Mustang GT and let's run. Kansas City International Raceway, 8201 Noland Rd, Kansas City, MO 64138. It'll only cost you $20 and a little of your pride.
"You're right, considering that it comes standard." (Referring to the 6.0 LS2 being available in a Holden Monaro).
My response: (Taken from the Holden website)
• 260kW, 5.7 litre high output Gen III V8 engine
• Electric tilt and slide factory sunroof
• Dual zone climate control
• 260 watt 6 disc in-dash CD audio system
• Electrically adjustable leather sports seats
• 18" CV8Z machined alloy wheels
• Dual outlet free-flow exhaust
• CV8Z badging
Step 2 of 3
Choose your engine/transmission type, options and accessories for your Monaro CV8Z:
* Recommended Retail Price (RRP) does not include Dealer delivery and Government charges, or fitting and labour costs for accessories. Pricing for alloy wheels excludes tyres. Pricing for body kits and spoilers are for primed parts only.
1. Select an engine/transmission type:
Monaro CV8Z 5.7L Automatic Generation III V8 engine $60,490.00 RRP*
Monaro CV8Z 5.7L 6-Speed Manual Generation III V8 engine $60,490.00 RRP*
2. Select the options you would like to add:
There are no options available for this model
3. Select the accessories you would like to add:
NB. Fitting and labour not included in RRP
Lockable wheel nuts $51.15 RRP*
Bonnet protector $88.00 RRP*
Headlamp guard $82.50 RRP*
Bluetooth mobile phone kit $495.00 RRP*
Mobile mounting platform and holder $61.60 RRP*
Boot lip protector $55.00 RRP*
Boot organiser $198.00 RRP*
Performance Exhaust $1,397.00 RRP*
4. Total price: $60,490.00 RRP*
Now who's credibility should be questioned? As I said in my post, I will post factual information based upon my personal experiences.
#1962 of 2056 Re: Back To the Topic [rorr]
Mar 09, 2006 (12:57 pm)
Based upon your complete disregard for the power of advertising, why does Ford spend so much money promoting a car that you contend should sell itself? If you don't put something in front of the public, you are not going to get the sales that you would have if you did. GM knew going into this, that with such a limited number of vehicles available, it did not make sense for them to initiate an advertising program for the GTO. While sales have been slower than what I'm sure GM had hoped, it still comes down to the advertising aspect, not the automobile itself.
#1963 of 2056 Re: Back To the Topic [whatsachevy]
Mar 09, 2006 (2:32 pm)
Could you please go back to my post and re-read it? I'm fairly certain that you will not find any mention WHATSOEVER of the role of advertising on sales for either the GTO OR the Mustang.
But, if you insist, let's talk about advertising. First, the GTO has been featured fairly prominately in generic Pontiac ads, ads featuring the G6, and recently ads featuring the Solstice. Has there been a campaign DEDICTATED strictly to the GTO? After the flurry following it's introduction as an '04 model, not to my knowledge.
Second, I haven't noticed much of a campaign for the Corvette either. One doesn't appear to be necessary as sales of the Corvette are fine. And the Corvette is quite a bit pricier, with much less utility for not a GREAT deal more performance. Yet, even with little advertising the Corvette sells just fine.
Third, IMO you are inflating the ad campaign for the Mustang. I recall a few ads when it first came out (particularly the Steve McQueen ad) and a few ads for the new convertible when it first came out. Otherwise, the only place I see the Mustang is briefly in generic Ford ads. Maybe I'm just missing this massive promotional campaign you've insinuated.
Fourth, with as few GTO's as GM planned to import (and given the price/performance ratio for the car), it shouldn't NEED a great deal of advertising to move that number of units. I'm fairly certain that most of the target demographic for the GTO is aware of it's existence. Blaming a lack of advertising on the slow sales is to ignore the real problem.
regarding the other post about the issue of oversteering and power application:
It all depends on what has induced the oversteer in the first place. If you've started to oversteer in a corner because you've applied too much torque to the rear wheels (power ON oversteer), applying MORE power won't help.
If you've started to oversteer in a corner at a constant throttle or no throttle, then yes, you can help the car regain traction by applying throttle. I would debate whether or not this should be done forcefully as you recommend or gently. It probably depends on the amount of oversteer, available traction, and torque characteristics of the car.
The reason applying power CAN help with oversteer is because when torque is applied, the car will attempt to accelerate and you'll get weight transfer onto the rear wheels. This weight transfer will help the rear-end to regain traction. But you can't just make the broad statement that oversteer is always corrected by mashing the gas.