Last post on May 27, 2009 at 4:34 PM
You are in the Ford Mustang
What is this discussion about?
Ford Mustang, Pontiac GTO, Coupe, Convertible
#1466 of 2056 Re: Mustang Vs. GTO [tayl0rd]
Sep 06, 2005 (12:22 pm)
I've been thinking about the Mustang's sales success. One thing I'm wondering is if the Mustang instead had Pontiac badges. Something tells me it would have sold like the 04-05 GTO.
5 years ago, if you asked someone which car they liked better, Mustang or Camaro, I think invariably the answer would be "Mustang" from all but Camaro/GM fans.
It's almost like the 2005's success could have been predicted and may have worked well even with a different styling, content or pricing formula, whereas GTO's diminutive numbers may have also been set in stone. Here's the thing guys. I don't personally think that the GTO could have sold 60k copies, even if it matched or undercut Mustang GT's MSRP, even if the styling and/or content was altered. Thoughts?
#1467 of 2056 Re: Mustang Vs. GTO [kevm14]
Sep 06, 2005 (1:26 pm)
Good points, but I don't think the Mustang's success could have been predicted by Ford or anyone else. In fact, Ford drastically underestimated the Mustang's overall success as well as the demand for specific models and options (GT, IUP, Manual Trans, etc). The production car looks significantly different than the show cars that were displayed. Every general automotive and Mustang specific publication I've read has said it's the best Mustang in a long time...if not ever.
I would have bought the Mustang if it had looked the same and been a Pontiac. I seriously considered the GTO as it is. Personally, I don't harbor any brand loyalty or prejudice.
I do think we cross the proverbial "streams" in our discussion though. The Mustang V6 is not a fair comparison to the GTO. The real comparison is between the Mustang GT and GTO. Even taking out the V6, the Mustang GT outsells the GTO by a factor of at least 5. Price could be some of that, but configuring similar options on Edmund's for both cars puts the GTO about $3,500 higher....that isn't a huge difference. However, it is enough to explain some difference in sales.
#1468 of 2056 Re: Mustang Vs. GTO [kevm14]
Sep 06, 2005 (2:31 pm)
A lot of different "points" had to be done right in order for the success of the '05 Mustang to be what it is. I believe Ford got the performance right, they certainly got the the styling right (and, if we're being honest with each other, styling is one of the reasons we buy performance cars). Pricing issues have been a mixed bag. If you could get a Mustang GT for that proverbial $25K price point, then I'd say that the lower price helped, too. But, the fact is, few made it out of the factory bone stock (no options).
I've heard of people paying $35K for a coupe and $40K for a 'Vert (both GTs). Most paid MSRP. While unscientific, I'd say the median price of a GT would be in that $27K-$28K price range.
Shifting over to the GTO, dealers "overcharged" for the first ones hitting the showrooms. When that wasn't getting it done saleswise, GM started rebating. Then they mildly restyled it for '05 and dropped a 'vette engine in it. That helped a bit, but once the rebates dropped off and the employee pricing went away, sales languished, again. So, it's fair to say that pricing of the GTO vs the Mustang GT is closer than it seems to be. It had to hurt that GM couldn't do more from a pricing perspective since it's so expensive shipping the GTO over to these shores.
I won't address the styling as we've all got our own opinions. I personally think the Mustang was a homerun from a styling perspective. Apparently, 50,000 plus GT owners feel the same way. It looks like, at least initially, the '06s will be in relatively short supply for the Mustang GTs, too.....even with the price increases and "no discounting" from the dealers.
I also think that Ford got the suspension, steering and braking right, too. The general feel of the car is more sporting, which again, is what more performance car people are looking for.
Much has also been made about the interiors. While there's no doubt that the GTO has one of the best GM interiors around, the Mustang's interior is so purposeful, and so well done, that it probably negated what was perceived as a GTO strong suit.
The '04 GTO was a bit slower than the '05 Mustang GT and the '05 GTO is a bit faster than the Mustang. I think the performance is so close, that it became a non-issue.
Let's add it all up. GTO certianly had performance credentials. It certainly has a nice interior. Was it "perceived" as better than the Mustang's? Not according to those who opted to buy the Mustang over the GTO. Pricing was close between the two. But, for the price, did the GTO have enough styling "pizazz"? Again, probably not considering what the vast majority of the market segment bought.
Did GM advertise the GTO enough? When if first came out, they did quite a bit of advertising. Same with the Mustang. When it hit the showrooms this past winter, there were ads all over the place. Then when the 'vert hit, they advertised that model. Since then......nothing.....they didn't have to spend any more advertising dollars.
Ford started with pretty clean sheet of paper for the '05 Mustang. It would behoove GM to do the same thing....as opposed to offering leftovers from down under for Pontiac's alleged "halo" car.
None of this is meant to inflame. The question was asked. As a person that drove and considered both cars, this is just the way I see it....and answer.
#1469 of 2056 gto vs. mustang too boring, how about gto+gt vs SKYLINE
Sep 06, 2005 (3:28 pm)
i didn't see any mustang GTs today! in fact, i almost never see one. where are they? do they look so much like the rental V6s that i'm not noticing them? what distinguishes them so i can tell without being close enough to read a tiny GT tag ?
i did see a NISSAN SKYLINE today though, at least that's what the letters on the back said. N I C E . i didn't know they were in US yet. it looked sort of like a 350Z. from all the griping between the gt folks and gto folks, including some disrespect on the road, me and the two young Asian gents in the car were all about RESPECT. thumbs up, all around! traffic was tight, so not much chance for me us to "air out" the engines. maybe it was really a 350Z with some sort of bogus/aftermarket SKYLINE tag?
ok, if not a GTO vs skyline thread, how about mustang GT vs skyline!
or, GTO+GT together, vs skyline.
#1470 of 2056 Re: gto vs. mustang too boring, how about gto+gt vs SKYLINE [elias]
Sep 07, 2005 (5:15 am)
...what distinguishes them so i can tell without being close enough to read a tiny GT tag ? ...
Although I highly doubt you're being serious, I'll give you a clue. The most obvious is the huge foglights in the grille. Then the GT has different front and rear fascias, subtle ground effects (side skirts), the large GT badges on the fenders and the big GT in the middle of the medallion on the trunk. Another obvious difference is the dual exhaust on the GT with exhaust cutouts in the fascia.
And why would you want a comparison of the GTO, GT, and Skyline (GT-R)? Wouldn't it be better to do the Corvette Z06, Mustang GT500, and Skyline GT-R (if it ever makes it here)? We all can pretty much guess who'd come out on top of that one.
#1471 of 2056 Re: gto vs. mustang too boring, how about gto+gt vs SKYLINE [tayl0rd]
Sep 07, 2005 (5:31 am)
As many '05 Mustangs as Ford has made (50,000 GTs....140,000 V6s), I'm surprised I don't see more of them, either.
On the road, I've seen two 'verts....one V6 and one GT. There's a black GT coupe running around here that I see on occassion. My sister just took delivery of a black GT (took her 6 months to get it once she ordered it, though)....even though her husband works for GM! He wanted her to buy the GTO, but didn't have any luck talking her out of the Mustang once she drove mine. Then there's mine......redfire coupe GT.
That's about it. I know there has to be more out there.since my dealer (like most other dealers) had their best Mustang sales year, ever.
#1473 of 2056 Re: Mustang Vs. GTO, sales just like old days[tayl0rd]
Sep 07, 2005 (7:52 am)
In the old days, 1965 to 1974, the Mustang easily OUTSOLD the GTO as well. GTO was more $$ then a Mustang back then. Same thing 40 yrs later. Dejavu. In fact the final yr both cars sold head to head, 1974.... The 1974 Mustang sold 400,000 to only 10,000 '74 GTO.
#1474 of 2056 Re: Mustang Vs. GTO, sales just like old days[tayl0rd] [gxpgtodanman]
Sep 07, 2005 (8:41 am)
'74 wasn't the pinnacle for either the GTO nor the Mustang. The '74 model year, Pontiac made few of them. Couple of reasons....the most glaring was that, while it came with a 350 CID motor, it was "choked" to only 200HP because of stricter smog regs. It was really little more than a Lemand with a few tape stripes and badging added.
On the other hand, the Mustang had just been totally re-designed as the "Mustang II". It became an "economy car" based on what was happening at the time (alleged "gas crisis" and smog regs) with a 4cyl standard and a 6cyl as the "upgrade" motor.
The Mustang II sold well for a while, but really didn't represent what the Mustang really is about. So, it finally gave way to the FOX platform in '79.