Last post on May 27, 2009 at 5:34 PM
You are in the Ford Mustang
What is this discussion about?
Ford Mustang, Pontiac GTO, Coupe, Convertible
#1229 of 2056 old Mustang NOT classic [rorr]
Aug 09, 2005 (7:52 am)
"Been to many car shows featuring Cavaliers or GrandAms? "
What does that have to do with Mustang vs Gto? I have been to many shows featuring the 2004 and 2005 GTO. Sorry, but it commands a lot more attention then you think. I have had just as many people coming up to me at the shows as the 2005 Stang owners..
"The point being - having style which evokes a classic is generally regarded as being a good thing"
Sorry the old Mustangs are not classics and either are the old GTO's. They are antique/collector cars. A Classic is a Generally high-priced when new and was built in limited quantities car made in 1948 or prior !!
The Mustang was a high production car for the masses, thus it will never be termed a Classic by the Classic Car Club of America. Most likely the GTO never will be either.
Time will tell with the Mustang retro design. Look at what happened to Fords Retro Tbird. Hot seller with big dealer markups, "Got to Have" then by the 3rd year they couldn't give them away, thus $10k off MSRP and they finally cancelled it.
#1231 of 2056 gxpgtodanman
Aug 09, 2005 (8:31 am)
Okay, now you're going to parse words.
The point being that the old Mustang 'look' (generally regarded as a 'classic look' by most non-GM owners) is generally regarded as a 'good' thing. Or at least a few hundred thousand people in the first year seem to think so.
On the other hand, a 'look' which generally brings to mind a mid-90's GM sedan is generally regarded less favorably. You can spin this all you want, but (and here I quote a GM owner of past Pontiac musclecars and current owner of a C5 Corvette), "Ford absolutely killed Chevy with the new Mustang. It makes me sick that GM just rolled over on 'em with the Camaro."
Well, you could argue that the GTO is not the Camaro. In most respects it's a much better car. BUT, GM cannot attract large numbers of young first time buyers looking for a performance automobile at a reasonable price with a GTO. The Camaro had that ability. To replace the Camaro in their lineup, and to fill this requirement, they have the Cobalt (featured prominantly as the 'little brother' to the Corvette in Chevy marketing). Yep, that's right. Chevy replaced the Camaro with the Cobalt. And it is precisely BECAUSE GM 'rolled over' to Ford that we are left comparing the Mustang to the GTO, rather than the Mustang to the Camaro.
Tbird comparison - are you seriously putting forth the opinion that the new Mustang is just a flash in the pan, destined for market withdrawal in just a few years? Interesting.
#1232 of 2056 Re: gxpgtodanman [rorr]
Aug 09, 2005 (9:10 am)
And to further your remarks, the Mustang has been a perennial best seller from day one. It would be foolish to think that the Mustang, of all cars, is a "flash in the pan."
And on top of that, in every review that you read about the Mustang, the reviewer basically sums it up with everything that was "wrong" with the Mustang has been made "right" with this generation.
In my opinion, if GM had made a retro Camaro/Firebird from the same period, it would've been extremely hard for folks to decide whether to buy a Mustang or one of the GM twins.
gxpgtodanman also comments that the Mustang's design isn't original (or something to that effect). How is the GTO's design original? It looks just like its siblings. A Mustang will never be mistaken for anything other than a Mustang. That can't be said of the GTO.
#1233 of 2056 Re: gxpgtodanman [rorr]
Aug 09, 2005 (9:59 am)
The Fbody was cancelled because it wasn't selling well. Sales kept declining year after year. Where as Mustang sales stayed even or increased. So I can't totally blame GM for killing Fbody.
The Cobalt is NOT replacing the Camaro, it's replacing the old Cavalier. The Cobalt SS outperforms the V6 Mustang. Runs mid to high 14's. The facts are that the young first time buyers are going into the Front wheel drive compact sports scene, which the Cobalt SS should do very well in. They aren't buying F body or Mustangs anymore or I should say as well as they used too. The avg age on Mustang buyers is higher then it was 10+yrs ago. All of the V8 Stangs I have seen are older people. Same with GTO's, except me.
My mistake on Mustang to Tbird comparison. I think at some point Stang sales will cool off. Probably still be good for 100k+ a year though.
#1234 of 2056 Re: gxpgtodanman [rorr]
Aug 09, 2005 (10:09 am)
The Camaro only had the ability to attract younger first time buyers because of the entry level V6 models which accounted for nearly 66% of sales just like the Mustang.
The V6 Mustang just like V6 Fbody these younger 1st buyers are buying is NOT a performance vehicle. It's all show and no go. Hyundai Tiburons, Civics, RSX;s cobalts are just as fast if not faster then V6 stang. And their engines are more refined then the truck Explorer/Ranger V6 found in Stang.
That said the avg young 1st time buyer can NOT afford a V8 Mustang that starts for $25k and approaches $30k. Let alone a GTO. The insurance is horrendously high on Mustang V8 if you are young. Just like Fbody. Where as the Cobalt etc is much cheaper.
For me in my early 30's, the 400hp GTO was almost $250 cheaper per year then V8 Mustang to insure. Same coverages, etc.
#1235 of 2056 Re: Honda to Ford.. [rorr]
Aug 09, 2005 (10:24 am)
Most of the people that make fun of the GTO for looking like a Cavalier or Grand Am are usually young people. Most of it is only in cyberspace, never usually to my face. Except this one time I had been told at a car show it was a cavalier and it was some punk kid, early 20's. Yep it's my 400hp Cavalier, LOL! When I asked what he drove, he didn't answer, hmm.... I have respect for anyone's car, New mustang is nice, I just happen to like GTO better.
#1236 of 2056 Re: gxpgtodanman [gxpgtodanman]
Aug 09, 2005 (11:29 am)
"The Fbody was cancelled because it wasn't selling well."
In other words, abandon that market rather than fix what's wrong with the product. And don't say that the market was going away since, as you pointed out, Mustang sales kept even or increased.
"The Cobalt is NOT replacing the Camaro, it's replacing the old Cavalier."
With the V6 Camaro, GM had only 1 competitor in the inexpensive, RWD performance coupe market (Mustang). And an essentially captive audience (domestic buyers) to sell to.
Now, with the Cobalt SS, GM has a minimum of 1/2 dozen very strong competitors in the FWD sporty coupe market, some offering better performance, and the target audience is predominately import buyers.
And this makes sense? So the Cobalt SS outperforms the V6 Mustang. At what point will GM realize that 1/4 mile times do NOT define how a car will do on the market. You say the Cobalt doesn't replace the Camaro. Actually, I agree with you. But if that's the case, then NOTHING replaced the Camaro and, as I've pointed out, that simply means that GM abandoned that market COMPLETELY to Ford. Sad.
"The avg age on Mustang buyers is higher then it was 10+yrs ago."
Really? Where have you found that little stat? I seem to remember a big argument in this very thread from GTO fans that were making the case that the Mustang is essentially a high school kids car suitable more for high schoolers and college students whereas the GTO was an 'adults' car.
I don't have any stats at hand either, but I'm of the opinion that the base Mustang has a better chance of making a dent in the import dominated sporty coupe market than the Cobalt (or old Mustang) because it offers distinctive styling. And style SELLS with that market.
#1237 of 2056 Re: gxpgtodanman [rorr]
Aug 09, 2005 (2:19 pm)
Cobalt is intended to be big in the small car market. Draw some of those kids away from Neons,Civics etc. Time will tell. Cobalt like the Cavalier will outsell the Mustang. 250k to 300k Cobalts estimated However they don't really compete head to head. Probably have to compare Focus to the Cobalt. Ford Cancelled the Focus SVT, not enough sales !!
GM has made a lot of mistakes, hopefully they can learn from them before they are too late.
A lot of the HS students that are getting new cars around me are getting mostly WRX/Impreza, civic si, SRT4/Neon, Evo etc. Even some Cobalt's. Knowone is really getting a Mustang. I thought I read that the avg mustang owner was older today, can't remember.
You are right, style does sell in some cases.
However IMHO there is more to a car then just styling. I look at the whole package, interior, ride, comfort etc. To me the GTO is perfect in all those categories and has it nailed except styling.
#1238 of 2056 Re: gxpgtodanman [rorr]
Aug 09, 2005 (3:06 pm)
The import dominated sporty coupe market necessarily don't have that much style either. Civic or Scion or Neon? Just as bland as my GTO if not more so. I thought Focus hatchback was downright ugly, my opinion. I think it will be hard to convince a lot of those young folks to buy a American car. They like many others percieve the American cars to be bad and foreign good. False Stereotypes, the US cars have done a lot of catch up in the past 10 yrs.
Dif topic, but Accord/Camrys are among the DULLEST/boring looking cars on the road, YAWN...yet are #1 sellers? Style isn't always everything.