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Hatchbacks Mazda3 Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si
1379 messages, Last post on Oct 01, 2009 at 10:54 AM
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Bottom line - with any vehicle, you get out of it what you put into it. If people take the time to have the proper maintenance performed on their vehicles on a regular basis, more often than not (save for factory recalls), the vehicle will be reliable. And that logic applies whether you're driving VW's, Mazdas, Fords, Chevy's, Hondas, Toyotas, Lawn Tractors, etc.... I agree with you in part, Tony. You're right about proper maintenance. But, if that's the case, then your argument seems to imply that most consumers of VWs seem to be less diligent than most consumers of Toyotas, otherwise why are VWs less reliable than Toyotas? In other words, why do some cars, like VW, happen to have customers, except for you, with such poor maintenance habits? I think we as consumers share some of the responsibility. As computer users we should install firewalls and diligently avoid spyware but that does not mean that Microsoft is not required to properly test their software before releasing it on the market for the public to use; otherwise, all those lapses in testing and consequent security holes will create endless headaches for their users. Are the users then to blame for poorly maintaining their software? Some automanufacturers appear to have made choices that have lowered the reliability and consequently the desirability of their wares. So as you can see, there is enough guilt to go around! 
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Replying to: autonomous (Apr 16, 2005 7:05 am) I also believe that based on the driving habits of people I've observed these days (and I've seen plenty of them in my lifetime), I can safely say that there is a higher percentage of people who are less diligent in maintaining their cars (of ANY manufacturer, make or model) than those who are. Many factors play into this - busier lifestyles, longer working hours/commutes, compressed schedules. That being said, I've also observed many of these drivers talking on cell phones, putting on makeup, reading the paper, shaving - totally oblivious to what's going on. So if these drivers demonstrate the aforementioned traits I've just described, than I can conclude that regular preventive maintenance is not exactly high on their list of priorities. Therefore, when something goes wrong, they are quick to blame the dealer/manufacturer for all of their automotive-related problems instead of also taking into account whether their lack of personal responsibility also had a role (oops, I forgot that personal responsibility is not in vogue in today's age of litigation, my bad...). I guess I'm one of those rarities who strongly believes in personal responsibility. I take personal responsibility in making sure my vehicle is properly maintained. I'm on a first-name basis with every service manager and private mechanic that I deal with. They know I will take the necessary steps to make sure my vehicle is maintained, and they know what I expect of them - I expect integrity, high standards and results, not excuses. My clients expect the same of me in my professional life, and I deliver - otherwise I will be on the unemployment line. If I were the CEO of some of these automotive manufacturers, heads would definitely roll. But again, I digress.... If people make an honest effort to maintain their vehicle and it still gives them problems, it's on the dealer/manufacturer. That being said, the biggest mistake I've seen drivers make time and again is (in their quest to feed their egos by being the first kid on the block to have the latest and greatest ) buying their car during their first one or two years of production. By doing so, these unfortunate people have volunteered to become beta testers for the automotive industry. I buy my cars during the last year or two of production (another one of my secrets to automotive longevity) - by that time most of the bugs have been worked out. BTW - Automotive maintenance and collective guilt is a pretty good discussion. Thanks one and all...
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Replying to: 600kgolfgt (Apr 16, 2005 4:50 pm) I'd be interested in hearing what you think of the long term reliability ratings given by Consumer Reports to various VW products. It seems that products by VW and its relative Audi suffer from electrical issues; has that been your experience? According to CR, owners of these cars have reported problems in over 14.8% of the cases based on their latest survey. These defects are considered so important that CR classes the cars as unreliable. For a Passat or Audi TT, two of my favorite cars, this rating seems astounding to me. These are not lowly carts but near luxury class vehicles. Compare this to the humble Mazda 3 and its predecessor Protege, both of which are rated highly in almost every category. I"d be interested to hear how you square that circle.
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Replying to: autonomous (Apr 17, 2005 4:28 am) That being said - the Mazda has definitely been more reliable than VW as a whole. But I don't choose my cars on reliability alone. I chose my 2003 VW Wolfsburg Jetta based on styling, fit and finish, driving dynamics, road feel (which the Mazda doesn't have - and I've test driven the 3), the smoothness, power, and low-end torque of the 1.8T (peak torque starts at 1950 rpm as opposed to 3000+ rpm for the Mazda). And on top of that, the Mazda 3 and 6 (among other makes) have emulated the styling ques from the 4th-generation Jetta from the sleek, somewhat rounded shape right down to the roof mounted antenna (which VW pioneered 19 years ago with the 1986 Scirocco 16V). Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It's the same theme - the Germans have the role of automotive pioneers - introducing new innovations to market, and the Japanese have benefitted by learning from the German's mistakes, emulating and improving upon these innovations - and if you don't believe me, ask Mazda where the original patent on the rotary (Wankel - which is a name of German origin) engine came from - it's from NSU in Germany. The diesel engine is also a German innovation brought to market by Rudolf Diesel. So Mazda may have the edge on reliability, but definitely not on originality. The circle is complete....
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Replying to: 600kgolfgt (Apr 17, 2005 5:18 am) As far as styling, fit and finish, driving dynamics, and road feel, I have yet to read a bad review in any of these categories for the Mazda3. What I have heard however are complaints about the Jetta having a sloppy shifter and boring handling. The only real advantage of the Jetta is the extra power. That leaves a personal question as to if the extra price of the Jetta rationalizes that increase in power. So either there are lots of crazy people running around thinking the Mazda3 is a fun car to drive, or maybe you are just the crazy one. Lastly, dont blame Japanese manufacturers for improving on European designs. There is just as much need for improving a design as there is in the original design. Case in point, if you think that Wankel was the first person to dream up a rotary engine, you're crazy. The fact of the matter is there were numerous previous attempts to develop a rotary motor, Wankel just fixed the problem of keeping the gas sealed to enable compression (read about Swiss manufacturer Bernard Maillard if you dont believe me). If you really want to go there about the Germans being automotive pioneers, lets look at that. You could make a case about Americans being automotive pioneers. After all, they were the first to mass produce the automobile and developed the automatic transmission. You could call the Japanese automotive pioneers for developing feasible hybrid vehicles. So before you claim the Germans as the high and mighty in the automotive world, maybe you should do some homework.
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Replying to: biggus3 (Apr 17, 2005 10:53 am) The fact that Germans usually play the role of automotive pioneers is undeniable (whether you want to admit it or not. Second, I'm not blaming the Japanese for improving a European product (I would do the same thing myself if I were in their shoes) - I'm just stating a fact. I've been driving (and fixing) cars since the 1970's - and I've seen the trends, so I have a pretty good idea of what I am talking about. Third, autonomous and I were having a friendly, civil discussion and have basically agreed to disagree about certain issues. If you would like to join the discussion in a calm, non-reactionary manner, you're more than welcome to do so. Reactionary discussions will only serve to alienate your intended audience. Fourth, as far as an overall automotive package, you seem to favor the Mazda, and I seem to favor the Jetta. No one is "crazy" for making a choice that seems to fit their needs. That's why there are hundreds of different makes and models of automobiles. If we all had to drive the same car - things would definitely be beyond boring.... BTW - I have done my homework, and it's a fact that the Japanese manufacturers over the years have identified the BMW's, Audi's, Porches, Mercedes Benz's and yes, even the VW's as their competitive targets and design aspirations - and in many ways have either matched, closed the gap, or surpassed, and in other ways, the Germans keep raising the bar. It's called competition - one side comes up with something good, the other side comes up with something even better, and the process repeats itself again and again. It's good for the consumer. >What I have heard however are complaints about the Jetta having a sloppy shifter and boring handling. So that means since you have heard about it, I can assume you haven't actually driven one. I have driven Mazdas - including the 3 and the 6, and I like the driving dynamics. But, like most Japanese vehicles, you have to wind the engine to keep it in the fat part of the torque curve. Now that's my impression - don't take it personal (unless you are a key shareholder of Ford/Mazda). One more thing - if you've read the road tests on the upcoming 2006 VW GTI, the general consensus is that "VW has once again raised the bar" - which the original GTI did back in 1976. The GTI is the ORIGINAL pocket rocket which provided the inspiration for the genre all the way to the present day pocket rockets. And that's a fact....
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What can I say, Tony, but I agree with you. Regarding the German-Japanese circle, Mazda openly cites BMW as their model; just consider the latest badging (e.g. BMW 3 series, Mazda 3). To my eyes, the Protege5 (my car) is a variant of the VW Golf (omnipresent on the streets of Montreal, my home town). I believe the VW Golf used to be the top small car in Quebec (that little piece of Europe in North America) until it was displaced by the Mazda3. Some of the dire business reports about VW (e.g. major loss of sales in 2004, poor showing of the Phaeton, poor reliability ratings esp. the Touareg, offshore quality concerns, etc.) make me wonder about its future. |
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Replying to: 600kgolfgt (Apr 17, 2005 4:30 pm) Furthermore, I wasn't trying to deny that the Germans have created quality automobiles over the last few decades. I was pointing out however that stating that Germans are automotive pioneers and Japanese brands merely improve on German designs is a tad bit short sighted. You can make a great case any of the 3 countries playing "the role of automotive pioneers" for the reasons cited in the previous post. Lastly, I will concede that the GTI seems like a drastic improvement over the previous generation and will be fun to drive. I do however believe that if the Mazdaspeed3 gets the rumored 220 hp turbocharged 2.3L, it will definitely give the GTI a run for its money. But we will just have to wait for that battle. Sorry for "taking the argument a bit too personal"
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Replying to: biggus3 (Apr 18, 2005 12:42 am) The Japanese, European and Korean automakers are prime examples of an engineering-oriented corporate culture (most of their top managers come from engineering backgrounds) - so we can expect the bulk of innovation to come from these circles. So I expect Mazda and VW (despite its current problems) will be in the game for years to come. The bean-counting, marketing-oriented corporate culture of the Big Three has somewhat stifled their innovation by focusing on high profit pickup trucks and SUVs (especially in the case of GM) and ceding the rest of the car market to the Europeans, Japanese and Koreans - resulting in the lessening interest in their products and slowly dwindling market share. Therefore, I prefer to buy my automobiles from companies (and/or countries) with an engineering-oriented philosophy. |
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Excellent points! biggus3: You can make a great case any of the 3 countries playing "the role of automotive pioneers" for the reasons cited in the previous post. The reality is that auto manufactures are no longer national, and hence do not represent a particular "country". We all know it's not unusual for an auto manufacturer to have headquarters in Japan, designers from Italy, assembly in Kentucky and a world salesforce to be called a global firm. The result: incredible machines brought out by the best from each area. Its an F1 world. 600kgolfgt: The bean-counting, marketing-oriented corporate culture of the Big Three has somewhat stifled their innovation by focusing on high profit pickup trucks and SUVs (especially in the case of GM) and ceding the rest of the car market to the Europeans, Japanese and Koreans - resulting in the lessening interest in their products and slowly dwindling market share. I'm glad you added "somewhat" above as I think GM's skateboard is an amazing feat of engineering. Also, their venture into fuel cell technology, in effect leap frogging hybrid technology, leaves me salivating for some practical applications. The problem with GM seems to be that not enough baby steps are preceding this giant leap, so a lot is riding on the vision. The Honda Accord Hybrid proves that a large firm can create a more fuel efficent and more powerful machine accessible to a wide audience that is more than insight. Let's all hope GM pulls it off.
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