Last post on Dec 08, 2007 at 5:35 PM
You are in the Coupes & Convertibles
What is this discussion about?
Porsche 911, Chevrolet Corvette, Ferrari F430, Lotus Exige, Lotus Elise, Coupe
#514 of 532 Re: This debate has been going on..... [fedlawman]
Dec 08, 2007 (2:37 pm)
Replying to: pmc4 (Dec 07, 2007 8:52 pm)
"The V6 Camry gets 19 MPG city, whereas the Chevy Tahoe hybrid gets 21 MPG city."
Apples to oranges. The Tahoe is a truck that uses engine/fuel management devices that are not acceptable in a mass-market family sedan. You claimed that GM has superior hybrid technology, then why didn't they use it in the Malibu? I proved you woefully wrong with a comparison between the current/comparable midsize family sedans from each company.
And for the record, the automatic Corvette gets 15 MPG. The manual is rated at 16 MPG in the city, but only with the help of the "skip-shift" feature that forces the driver to go from 1st to 4th gear until normal acceleration. The new Lexus LS-F (with a 412 HP V-8) is also EPA rated at 16 MPG city even though it weighs 600 lbs more than the Vette (it's a heavy, luxury/performance sedan).
Which brings up another point - if the Corvette is such a world beater, how come the C6 engine needs 6.2 litres to produce a relatively dismal 430 hp (69 hp/litre)? The Mercedes CLK63 makes 500 hp with the same displacement. Toyota stomps Chevrolet with the new Lexus LS-F. It's V-8 makes 412 hp with only 5.0 litres (83 hp/litre). And don't forget BMW. The new V-8 M3 makes an astounding 414 hp with only 4.0 litres (103.5 hp/litre)!
Like I've said before. The Corvette is a fantastic sports car and an amazing performance bargain, but there's a reason why it only costs $45,000. You get what you pay for.
Drive a 10 year-old/100,000 mile Corvette back-to-back with a similarly used Porsche/BMW/Toyota and you'll immediately see why you saved so much money.
I've been waiting for a post like this ever since Mercedes brought their big-bore M156 engine to market (the 6.3L DOHC V8 M156 engine is Mercedes Benz's attempt at dethroning Chevrolet's exemplary LS3 V8 and powers an S-Class AMG coupe)!!!
Truth be told, folks, even with Mercedes Benz's multi-million dollar development effort at bringing to market large-displacement, complex engines, the DOHC concept still falls short of the goal.
Even with 32 valves, four camshafts, tons of doo-dads for variable valve camshaft timing and phasing and variable intake geometry, the very best Benz can do is 503 horsepower with a so-so 456 ft/lbs of torque! The LS7--an engine that has it's roots in a post WWII Cadillac V8 pushrod engine--generates 505 horsepower and 470 ft/lbs of torque.
Lemme get this straight. A pushrod engine generates more power and horsepower than a variable-valve V8 DOHC engine that has 32 valves, variable cam phasing at both the intake AND exhaust, costs almost $40,000 by itself, and has had nearly a billion research euro's thrown at it?
How can that be? I mean, for years, the 'sport-compact tuner' crowd has been saying, "The DOHC engine is just more refined and advanced than the LSx engines from Chevy. Sure, the Chevy engine makes more power, but it does it through brute force, not engineering. The only thing Chevy does is make a big-bore engine and throw pushrods at it, so there's no wonder it makes more power: through displacement and not through technology, like the DOHC engines.
"If a company like Mercedes Benz (or Honda) were to bring a big-displacement DOHC engine to market, Chevy's pushrod V8 would be history! I mean, just think about it. DOHC advancements with large displacement? Now that would be one powerful engine!"
But your 'moment of glory' never came. Mercedes did exactly that--created a large-displacement DOHC V8-- and it still falls short of the Almighty Pushrod's glory!
It's still weaker, has less horsepower, costs far more to manufacture and most important of all, has a very irregular powerband.
And let us remember, we must compare base engine to base engine; premium engine to premium engine. THe base engine is Benz's S550 V8. Their premium engine is the AMG M156 engine. Thus, we must compare the LS7 (not the LS3) to the M156, since they're both premium engines. We should compare the base LS3 to the S550 Benz mill, since they're both base mills and not premium engines.
For all these years, us enthusiasts have been saying that a large displacement DOHC V8 would still fall behind Chevy's tuned Pushrod V8. For years, you guys have been saying we were wrong. Mercedes Benz brings your engine to market and it's still not as good as Chevy's LS7.
FOR YEARS YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN FOOLED!!!
This Edmunds website shows the characteristic output curve (dynograph) of the big-bore Mercedes Benz V8 DOHC engine. Notice that the engine doesn't even start making 90% of its peak power until 3,500 RPM, and, being the very narrow powerband it is, falls below 90% at 5,500 RPM or so.
This dynograph is for the Chevrolet LS7, the world's most powerful normally-asperated V8 engine.
Notice the nearly flat and wide powerband, where 90% or greater power is generated even well past 6,300 RPM. You will not find a broader powerband anywhere, except on the racing circuit.
This is what tuning does to an engine. Honda and Mercedes Benz strategy is to add as many expensive doo-dads on an engine to try and boost power and flatten the torque curve; Chevrolet's strategy is to refine and tune the LSx engine to the point of perfection in order to get that ultra-wide powerband. Titanium con-rods, forged aluminum pistons and sodium-filled intake valve can't hurt, of course...
#515 of 532 Re: A General Question [fedlawman]
Dec 08, 2007 (3:02 pm)
Not saying the Corvette isn't high tech - and I agree that racing improves the breed of street cars through trickle-down technology. It's a credit to GM that the Corvette weighs as little as it does and performs so well.
But the fact remains that, although the C6 is a huge improvement over previous generations and is no longer the "one trick pony" it once was, it still does not possess the chassis refinement, suspension compliance, nimbleness, steering feel, build quality - overall BALANCE of a Porsche.
Most of you guys are being incorrect in this department. The very reason why I posted the pic of the Vette and of the GT3 was to show that the Vette is underrated and the Porsche is overrated in the 'dash-stroker' category. Critics are too afraid to admit that the BMW or the Porsche has a sub-standard interior, especially where price is concerned. I proved this by showing photographs of both interiors.
If you really want to see a very graphic illustration of this corrupt phonomena, just (and I implore you guys to do so) pick up the latest issue of Car and Driver magazine when you're at the store.
In it, Car and Driver compares the BMW 328i, Infiniti G35, Cadillac CTS and Mercedes Benz.
BMW wins the Comparison test.
Go to where Car and Driver heaps on praise regarding the "refinement, quality and execution" of the BMW's interior.
Then look at all three photographs--the photographs of the BMW, Infiniti and Cadillac interiors, side-by side.
What you are about to see will bring a tear to your eye.
Standing next to the Infiniti and especially the Cadillac, the BMW is far cheaper-looking, horribly executed, contrasting shapes, irregular colors and overall cheapness compared to the Infiniti and Caddy.
The BMW's tacked-on speaker grille tops it all off.
Then go to where they test the Lexus LS-F a few pages later, where they say, "With the merits of this Lexus, you guys will think we might consider getting off of BMW's bankroll..." It's clear from this review and the other review that Car and Driver is indeed being somehow paid by BMW.
If you look at the three tested cars, you'll believe it, too.
#516 of 532 Re: A General Question [chrmdome]
Dec 08, 2007 (3:08 pm)
People are hilarious!
People can be told that the interior of a Porsche or BMW is high-quality and that the Corvette is low quality.
Then when they sit in both cars, they see that the opposite is true: That the Corvette is richer-looking than the Porsche.
Then they walk away saying that the Porsche is richer-looking, because that's what they were told to believe. A remarkeable psychological phonomena indeed!
#517 of 532 Re: This debate has been going on..... [pmc4]
Dec 08, 2007 (3:39 pm)
"Even with 32 valves, four camshafts, tons of doo-dads for variable valve camshaft timing and phasing and variable intake geometry, the very best Benz can do is 503 horsepower."
...from 6.3 litres.
LS7 power from LS3 displacement? Hmmm...how come Chevy didn't do that?
#518 of 532 Re: A General Question [chrmdome]
Dec 08, 2007 (4:11 pm)
c...dome: " ... As out host has mentioned ( twice ? ) this is about street cars...sure racing improves the quality of our products ( one of my main points with Porsche ), but we are talking street cars here. ... "
I still don't understand paisan's comment. The title is ... discussion of sports cars.
Today, as Mike is well aware, performance and many non-performance cars are
taken on roadrace tracks every weekend of the year. Last time I was out I got a
right seat ride in a very non-sports car, a Monte Carlo, but that doesn't take away
from the fact that most of the cars on track are streetable sports cars. They are
being used as they were designed, not as race cars, but as performance sports
cars going around turns to improve driver skill. Very much on point to the title!
#519 of 532 Re: A General Question [starrow68]
Dec 08, 2007 (4:17 pm)
To all: Mike (paisan) is not the host here, claires is and I am filling in for her temporarily.
The discussion is indeed about sports cars.
ONE MORE TIME. We are talking about the cars listed at the top of the discussion and we are NOT talking about each other. If you folks want to continue to participate in this discussion, you need to stay on topic and drop the confrontational personal comments.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Pat, Roving Host
#520 of 532 Re: A General Question [pmc4]
Dec 08, 2007 (5:26 pm)
TOTAL CRAP GIVE ME A BRAKE OR IS IT BREAK. YOU ARE AN INSITER!
Dec 08, 2007 (5:35 pm)
Here is my take on this totally bs diatribe. Analogy:Republicans VS Democrats. The Republicans believe what they do and don't care what the Democrats think. On the other hand, the Democrats get angry when the Republicans do not accept their BS. Same with Porsche and Corvette owners. I own a Porsche and don't give a flying rats ass what the Corvette guys think about my car...or for that matter how they feel about Corvette but you Corvette guys waste oxygen trying to convince me of the quality/ potential of the Corvette. I DON"T CARE!