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Coupes & Convertibles Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion 
522 messages, Last post on Dec 08, 2007 at 6:07 PM
You are in the Coupes & Convertibles Forum. Your Host is claires
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Replying to: ateixeira (Nov 20, 2007 8:12 am) I never said that on a dry track I ran past the vettes. However in the cold and/or rainy weather often found here in the Northeast, I routinely pass equal drivers in the their Z06s. While the vette is a nice car, I still think that porsches are far better stock to stock. As for racing in REAL races where $$$$ is no object, it's anyone's guess and the correct amount of $ will yield the winner no matter what car you are driving. I've driven stock Z06s on track as well as Porsches and the balance of a porsche is very difficult to match, this balance will yield you faster lap times on a consistent basis. Maybe on the west coast where it's sunny and dry all the time and the tracks are perfectly smooth with no gravel or imperfections, a vette would win but in the real world or in a place where there are environmental variables, a more balanced car would be my preference. As for racing, everything is setup by classing, no matter what you race someone will have a faster car in a faster class. -mike Certified Track Instructor
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Replying to: paisan (Nov 20, 2007 4:37 pm) Cold and rainy or nice and sunny. We get our share of rain here in Northern Calif., as a matter of fact had a couple sessions yesterday in the wet at Sears Point raceway, Sonoma. And yes, the 4wd cars did wonderful things while they had the wet to play in, but when the track went nice again at lunch time it was another story. paisan: "Maybe on the west coast where it's sunny and dry all the time and the tracks are perfectly smooth with no gravel or imperfections, a vette would win but in the real world or in a place where there are environmental variables, a more balanced car would be my preference." Are you a host or a guy looking to stir up comment? I doubt Sears Point does much more than Watkins Glen to try and make the track nice for the two real races the Stock Car boys put on each year. And if you want gravel, try Reno-Fernley and Spring Mt. Raceway since both are set in Nevada. Most folks looking to run on a road course aren't looking for a Rally circuit, you may enjoy something different. As for balance, yesterday was a good view of wet and dry conditions at Sears Point. In the third session, advanced, I went out late and pulled up to the starter for a black flag to get a Miata off track. Got to pull out behind another Miata and we were both taking it easy as about 2/3 of the track was still pretty wet. As we got back to the starter there was another black flag. Yellows at each station up to turn 7 where she was waving it lazily, we weren't going too fast. Did the sweep and into the 8 esses and off the outside of 8a, 1/2 an esse before Jr. had his fire there sits a silver 911 with the driver and safety crew surveying the scraped off rear facia about 50 ft. off track where he had rear swiped the tire barrier. Think he might have lifted? The Vette C5 and C6's are about 50/50 or as close as you can get when corner weighting. Can you say that about the Porsches? Balanced? I do agree that they can be driven fast, but novices better take some time getting to that point or they are going to find out about balance. Randy Oh BTW, if the little plastic card from NASA and my work with Thunderhill Street School makes me certified, then I guess I could say the same. Mostly I think I sit in the right seat trying to keep folks out of walls, which is amazingly easy if you can teach them the line. Oh, and not to lift!
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Replying to: starrow68 (Nov 21, 2007 12:31 pm)  I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, (pun intended) but as you noted earlier, driver is the #1 thing that will determine a faster car. You mentioned corner weighting, which would imply coilovers and a fairly modified car, I'm talking stock to stock. I've been instructing Racers, HPDEers, etc for many years, I've taught the classroom as well and race here in the Northeast with several organizations. Out West the instructional HPDEs are quite different than here on the East coast, that's fairly well known in the HPDE community. They are a lot more structured out here, similar to what you get in a Skip Barber School rather than an "open tracke session" To summarize, any car, in the hands of the proper driver will be faster or slower than another car in the hands of a less experienced driver. But my preference would be a more balanced car than a high HP RWD car on track. Brakes, handling and cost are all a factor in what to drive on track. -mike
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Replying to: paisan (Nov 21, 2007 6:02 pm) Well we agree that it's the driver that counts. And I agree that cost, handling, power and brakes are all factors, if in slightly different order. My '02 C5 coupe was only $40k/$45k off the show floor depending on options in '01. That was comparable to the Boxster at the time at the low end but they option up quite a bit higher, and is comparable on track to base model 911s, which started at $75k at the time. Then again S2000s were less and with mods, especially tires can go faster than all of the above. Enjoy your break from racing over the winter.  Not that I'm going next week, but there are two groups that have Laguna Seca on M/T and Th/F, gotta love good weather. I would be interested in what you see as the greater structure in HPDE, I've never done it any place but here. I do have several classes at Russell Racing as well as several at what was then Bragg-Smith and is now Spring Mt. Motorsports School. Not all HPDE groups out this way run the same kinds of programs and there are many. NASA, Hooked on Driving, TrackMasters, Team Miata, Nor. Calif. Racing, Speed Ventures, Green Flag, Shelby Club, Checkered Flag, and Unlimited Laps which I've run with and then Alfa Romeo Owners, Audi Club, Club Z, Driving Concepts, Lapping Days, Pantera Owners, Touring Car Club and Volvo owners, which I've not joined in with yet. I'd be hard put to say there is one approach out this way. And by the way, the SCCA SF Region track at Thunderhill runs its own THHPDE or Street School that involves more class time than track time. Randy |
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Replying to: ateixeira (Nov 20, 2007 8:12 am) The problem with the Porsche is that while the Corvette--especially the C3's--was modeledafter the Great White shark, the 911 was modeled after a bullfrog. This:  Took its inspiration from this: 
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paisan: " ... But my preference would be a more balanced car than a high HP RWD car on track. Brakes, handling and cost are all a factor in what to drive on track." Well we agree that it's the driver that counts. And I agree that cost, handling, power and brakes are all factors, if in slightly different order. My '02 C5 coupe was only $40k/$45k off the show floor depending on options in '01. That was comparable to the Boxster at the time at the low end but they option up quite a bit higher, and is comparable on track to base model 911s, which started at $75k at the time. Then again S2000s were less and with mods, especially tires can go faster than all of the above. Enjoy your break from racing over the winter. Oh I didn't list them in the order. But one of the things we always teach to students in our programs is if you can't afford to walk away from the car you are bringing to the track, you shouldn't be bringing it to the track because in general there is no insurance for your car (some policy's do cover but in recent years they've been backing away from that). It's cool to take your street car for the first few events, til you realize you want to drive 9/10ths, at that point getting something in the sub-$10k range is advisable in the event you ball it up. As mentioned, tires, suspension, driver all play key factors in what car will be faster on track. Yup we are into the winter blues now. All the tracks here are closed now til we go down to VIR for a 3hr Enduro in Feb, that's our winter break race and then we won't start again til late march/early april. -mike |
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Greetings: Opinions are like....... oh ya, ...in my humble opinion: I spent $99,949.85 out the door (cash sale, I am truely fortunate! )in Oct 2005 on my ordered 2006 C2S coupe. The VAST majority of Porsche owners never will experience the true potential of their cars, the VAST majority of Vet owners are likely in the same boat. I checked out the 2006 Corvettes and did not like the quality or fit of the interior. I own 2 Chevy products.. so I really do like Chevy. I was looking for a number of things in a sports car besides the fit and finish that Porsche offers. I have seen and driven Boxsters; they are built like a bank vault and a fine watch in one package. Almost every auto critic places the 997 S in a world class arena with the best, but the issue, besides the superior build quality of my 997 S , that really strikes me, is the history, the legend, the heritage that surrounds Porsche. IMO Porsche defines a " sportscar ".; the 997 is a daily use sportscar. I will never drop my clutch at 5000rpm to do a 3.9 sec. 0-60 mph, but someone has and he did. There have been chronic Vet/ 911 comparisons which fall on my deaf ears. If you enjoy your Vet , more power to you..enjoy. I love my 997 S for many reasons.. it was a dream of mine for years...... Chromedome |
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There's a Porsche ad running in Wall Street Journals lately about why Porsche has their ignition keys on the left of the steering wheel. The ad said, "When we started racing at 24-Hours of Lemans, we knew that every second counted. Our race car was vastly underpowered and did not have the power of the other cars, so realising how iportant time was, we put the ignition switch on the left side of the steering wheel, where it would be more accessible to the driver, freeing up his right hand for steering and engaging first gear. This is the level of attention and detail we give our cars, because in racing, every second counts." Now my question is this: Wouldn't Porsche actually win at LeMans if they stopped wasting their money and time on ignition switches and actually do something unprecidented and unthought of, like add horsepower to their cars?
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Replying to: pmc4 (Nov 27, 2007 9:05 pm) |
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Replying to: pmc4 (Nov 27, 2007 9:05 pm) They did! Read the whole thing. It says their cars were under powered when they started racing. Once they started seriously making purpose built endurance racers in the late 60s and early 70s the HP count went up dramatically and they won at LeMans using the mighty 917 and kept winning for many years afterward. Porsche has more wins at LeMans than any other marque.
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