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Coupes & Convertibles Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion 
522 messages, Last post on Dec 08, 2007 at 6:07 PM
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Replying to: paisan (Nov 19, 2007 4:35 pm) As I've stated, how many road course miles have you driven or instructed at? I have many many years at the road courses and time and time again the Z06 is passed easily by more nimble, far superior handling cars. My own 05 Legacy GT at Watkins Glen has passed tons and tons of Z06s over the years. Mike, it seems an introduction to Automotive Racing 101 is in tall order. The Corvette is a sportscar, not a musclecar nor a dragster, thus it belongs on a track and not a drag strip as you suggest. Secondly, anyone who loves their Subaru can register their car at any amateur racing event; there's a racing event held here in San Diego at Qualcomm Stadium and all kinds of cars are there. History has shown the Corvettes race the shortest lap times at this track (at or around 54 seconds) with cars like the Mazda RX8's finishing around very suprising 56-57 seconds (great-looking cars on this track, I might add!). Cars like yours usually finish very late, around 65 seconds and such. No one in their right mind would accept your fantasy that your car can remotely touch a stock Vette let alone a Z06; your car would lose to any stock vette save for the C1's and C2's. Even if your car is heavily modified, you cannot bypass the laws of physics, Mike. -- The Subaru Legacy GT-- heavy, pondering, 250 hp near sport sedan that retails around Honda Accord territory ($25,000) cannot compete against a toned-down version of a podium-finishing endurance racer that won virtually every world-renown endurance racing circuit it ever participated in (24-hr at LeMans; ALMS). Your car is going against a car that routinely defeats Porsche GT-class and Viper GTS-class racing cars. Heavy, numb, $25,000 3-Series contender with a steel chassis, 250 horsepower turbo'ed I4, standard family sedan clutch, .86g of grip on the skidpad and foregone technology versus a near-exotic that has carbon fiber panels, all-aluminum chassis construction, an Empire State-moving engine with 500 horsepower and 490 ft/lbs of torque that's arguably the most tuned powerplant in the industry and 19" tires that runs on EMT tires that can pull well over .95g's of grip, magnesium engine cradle and an illustrius racing history on the world's endurance racing circuits? I'd go with the latter... Mike, you can register your Subaru in an amateur, local racing event and actually race it in a class, but in the end it's still just a Subaru.
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Replying to: pmc4 (Nov 19, 2007 9:34 pm)
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Replying to: hotrod81 (Nov 20, 2007 3:50 am) 
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Replying to: paisan (Nov 19, 2007 4:35 pm) If you've driven that many miles on track (road course) then you should know that passing anything is a function of driver, not the vehicle. I pass Z06's in my C5 coupe, even a few C6 Z06s, so what? I only have 5 years on track and 2 doing some volunteer work in the right seat but I pass GT3 911s fairly regularly, again so what? If the driver doesn't have the experience it isn't a fair match. There is one particular Honda Civic that I remember seeing going by me at Laguna Seca last year, great driver in a well set up car, boosted. If you run with groups that allow timing at road courses then you will see 911's and C5Z06's at the top of most charts. The C6Z is in another world altogether. My C5 coupe on street tires ($40k/$45k new) is usually faster than even the Boxster S on DOT-Rs, at least one has never passed me, yet, and they run $40k-$90k if you believe Edmunds. At the track $ usually translates to pretty good potential but some cars are a better bang for the buck and the C5 is one, then again the 4wd Evo and WRX cars are probably better and the S2000 is great. Here on the left coast, at least at Sears Point, Laguna Seca, Thunderhill, Reno- Fernley and Buttonwillow what you are likely to see on track is as much a function of who is running the event as anything else. Some groups started as single marque clubs and expanded to run events for all marques but still get large showings from their original roots. We have had two all Corvette events at Thunderhill in the past year and I just got back from going to Spring Mt. Raceway in Pahrump to instruct at a Corvette Museum event that pulled in Vette's from all over the country. Expect to see more Vettes at a track near you, and when the drivers learn to get around quickly, don't be surprised at being passed. Then, of course, I'm sure it will be the HP and not the driver that made the difference. Randy |
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Replying to: andys120 (Nov 19, 2007 11:00 am) Then again, it might just be more fun to drive a fast car, really fast! At the Corvette Museum track event a couple weekends ago at Spring Mt. Raceway in Pahrump, NV there were close to 50% C6Z06's of the cars entered. Really a street legal race car and everyone at least stayed out of the walls and tire barriers, if not always staying on track. For $75k you get exotic car performance and in a package that is amazingly durable. There were 9 cars from GM there with over 20 staff folks and a few former professional drivers and the cars were going out in 4 of the 5 sessions repeatedly during the day. Of course a couple techs were swapping in new brake pads at the end of day one since it seems some folks were harder on the brakes than others. Randy |
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Replying to: pmc4 (Nov 19, 2007 3:43 pm) 
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Replying to: ateixeira (Nov 20, 2007 8:12 am) I never said that on a dry track I ran past the vettes. However in the cold and/or rainy weather often found here in the Northeast, I routinely pass equal drivers in the their Z06s. While the vette is a nice car, I still think that porsches are far better stock to stock. As for racing in REAL races where $$$$ is no object, it's anyone's guess and the correct amount of $ will yield the winner no matter what car you are driving. I've driven stock Z06s on track as well as Porsches and the balance of a porsche is very difficult to match, this balance will yield you faster lap times on a consistent basis. Maybe on the west coast where it's sunny and dry all the time and the tracks are perfectly smooth with no gravel or imperfections, a vette would win but in the real world or in a place where there are environmental variables, a more balanced car would be my preference. As for racing, everything is setup by classing, no matter what you race someone will have a faster car in a faster class. -mike Certified Track Instructor
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Replying to: paisan (Nov 20, 2007 4:37 pm) Cold and rainy or nice and sunny. We get our share of rain here in Northern Calif., as a matter of fact had a couple sessions yesterday in the wet at Sears Point raceway, Sonoma. And yes, the 4wd cars did wonderful things while they had the wet to play in, but when the track went nice again at lunch time it was another story. paisan: "Maybe on the west coast where it's sunny and dry all the time and the tracks are perfectly smooth with no gravel or imperfections, a vette would win but in the real world or in a place where there are environmental variables, a more balanced car would be my preference." Are you a host or a guy looking to stir up comment? I doubt Sears Point does much more than Watkins Glen to try and make the track nice for the two real races the Stock Car boys put on each year. And if you want gravel, try Reno-Fernley and Spring Mt. Raceway since both are set in Nevada. Most folks looking to run on a road course aren't looking for a Rally circuit, you may enjoy something different. As for balance, yesterday was a good view of wet and dry conditions at Sears Point. In the third session, advanced, I went out late and pulled up to the starter for a black flag to get a Miata off track. Got to pull out behind another Miata and we were both taking it easy as about 2/3 of the track was still pretty wet. As we got back to the starter there was another black flag. Yellows at each station up to turn 7 where she was waving it lazily, we weren't going too fast. Did the sweep and into the 8 esses and off the outside of 8a, 1/2 an esse before Jr. had his fire there sits a silver 911 with the driver and safety crew surveying the scraped off rear facia about 50 ft. off track where he had rear swiped the tire barrier. Think he might have lifted? The Vette C5 and C6's are about 50/50 or as close as you can get when corner weighting. Can you say that about the Porsches? Balanced? I do agree that they can be driven fast, but novices better take some time getting to that point or they are going to find out about balance. Randy Oh BTW, if the little plastic card from NASA and my work with Thunderhill Street School makes me certified, then I guess I could say the same. Mostly I think I sit in the right seat trying to keep folks out of walls, which is amazingly easy if you can teach them the line. Oh, and not to lift!
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Replying to: starrow68 (Nov 21, 2007 12:31 pm)  I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, (pun intended) but as you noted earlier, driver is the #1 thing that will determine a faster car. You mentioned corner weighting, which would imply coilovers and a fairly modified car, I'm talking stock to stock. I've been instructing Racers, HPDEers, etc for many years, I've taught the classroom as well and race here in the Northeast with several organizations. Out West the instructional HPDEs are quite different than here on the East coast, that's fairly well known in the HPDE community. They are a lot more structured out here, similar to what you get in a Skip Barber School rather than an "open tracke session" To summarize, any car, in the hands of the proper driver will be faster or slower than another car in the hands of a less experienced driver. But my preference would be a more balanced car than a high HP RWD car on track. Brakes, handling and cost are all a factor in what to drive on track. -mike
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Replying to: paisan (Nov 21, 2007 6:02 pm) Well we agree that it's the driver that counts. And I agree that cost, handling, power and brakes are all factors, if in slightly different order. My '02 C5 coupe was only $40k/$45k off the show floor depending on options in '01. That was comparable to the Boxster at the time at the low end but they option up quite a bit higher, and is comparable on track to base model 911s, which started at $75k at the time. Then again S2000s were less and with mods, especially tires can go faster than all of the above. Enjoy your break from racing over the winter. Not that I'm going next week, but there are two groups that have Laguna Seca on M/T and Th/F, gotta love good weather. I would be interested in what you see as the greater structure in HPDE, I've never done it any place but here. I do have several classes at Russell Racing as well as several at what was then Bragg-Smith and is now Spring Mt. Motorsports School. Not all HPDE groups out this way run the same kinds of programs and there are many. NASA, Hooked on Driving, TrackMasters, Team Miata, Nor. Calif. Racing, Speed Ventures, Green Flag, Shelby Club, Checkered Flag, and Unlimited Laps which I've run with and then Alfa Romeo Owners, Audi Club, Club Z, Driving Concepts, Lapping Days, Pantera Owners, Touring Car Club and Volvo owners, which I've not joined in with yet. I'd be hard put to say there is one approach out this way. And by the way, the SCCA SF Region track at Thunderhill runs its own THHPDE or Street School that involves more class time than track time. Randy |
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