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Coupes & Convertibles Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion 
522 messages, Last post on Dec 08, 2007 at 6:07 PM
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Replying to: paisan (Nov 18, 2007 7:34 pm) I can't see a putt-putt like a Boxster or Cayman which has less power than most V6 family sedans 'racing' on a race track. Ferrari F430 certainly and Z06 definately but a Porsche? You are really showing your complete ignorance of what sports cars and tracking them is all about. Even if it were true that the 250 HP of the base Boxster/ Cayman were less than "most V6 family sedans" they would still be miles ahead in such track essentials as power-to-weight, balance cornering and braking. Tracking isn't about power, it's about wringing the most out of a car and sports car cognoscenti will tell you the little Porsches have more "most" than most other cars. Our friend Shifty said it best when he said "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow". If you'd ever seen a Mini-Cooper or an Alfa GTV scoot around a 427 'Vette at Lime Rock or Laguna Seca you'd know what I meant.
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Replying to: andys120 (Nov 19, 2007 11:00 am) Tracking isn't about power, it's about wringing the most out of a car and sports car cognoscenti will tell you the little Porsches have more "most" than most other cars. Our friend Shifty said it best when he said "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow". If you'd ever seen a Mini-Cooper or an Alfa GTV scoot around a 427 'Vette at Lime Rock or Laguna Seca you'd know what I meant. Well put. Another thing that I like to adhere to is "In order to finish FIRST, first you must FINISH" I can't tell you how many positions we have moved up during races due to attrition from cars that are fast, but have mechanical issues and our "slow" car passes them while they are sitting in the pits.... -mike |
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Replying to: ateixeira (Nov 19, 2007 7:20 am) C4 was a weak example of a Corvette. My brother-in-law buys and sells those, he's owned 3. I never understood the appeal. The reason I picked the C4 was that the Porsche 924's were selling at roughly the same time the C4's went on sale. Remember, both the C4 and the 924 were selling for $10,000 at about the same time. I would have failed to get my point across if I said, "In 1983 you could have wasted your money on a $10,000 924 if you saved up the $35,000 that in 1997 would fetch you a great C5..."
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Replying to: andys120 (Nov 19, 2007 11:00 am) Tracking isn't about power, it's about wringing the most out of a car and sports car cognoscenti will tell you the little Porsches have more "most" than most other cars. Our friend Shifty said it best when he said "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow". My, don't we all suffer from the 'underdog' syndrome on this message board! (The 'underdog syndrome' was suffered from the Toyota fanboys back during the 90's because Toyota was way behind the greedy capitalist pigs at GM in terms of revenue generation. What's funny is now that Toyota is the greedy capitalist pig, and at #1, the underdogs are still behind Toyota for some reason--they should have defected to GM, but then I digress...) Truth be told, cars that are 'well-balanced' or that 'handle like a surgical scalpel' or (the one I hate the most) have "telepathic steering" are suitable for curvy road corses ("the Twisties") only. ("Telepathic steering"? What's next? An optional Ouiji board? Crystal ball shifters instead of cue ball shifters?). Handling takes second-place on the track. That's why cars like the Z06 or rear-engined 911's rule at the track, but feel cumbersome or otherwise unwieldy at the road course. mid/rear cars like the Cayman and mid-engine econo-boxes like the Boxster will fare well on the road course, because they feel lighter than they really are, thus, inspiring driver confidence.
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Replying to: pmc4 (Nov 19, 2007 3:53 pm) Oh you mean the DRAG STRIP. Then I agree, the Z06 will be faster. As I've stated, how many road course miles have you driven or instructed at? I have many many years at the road courses and time and time again the Z06 is passed easily by more nimble, far superior handling cars. My own 05 Legacy GT at Watkins Glen has passed tons and tons of Z06s over the years. -mike |
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Replying to: paisan (Nov 19, 2007 4:35 pm) As I've stated, how many road course miles have you driven or instructed at? I have many many years at the road courses and time and time again the Z06 is passed easily by more nimble, far superior handling cars. My own 05 Legacy GT at Watkins Glen has passed tons and tons of Z06s over the years. Mike, it seems an introduction to Automotive Racing 101 is in tall order. The Corvette is a sportscar, not a musclecar nor a dragster, thus it belongs on a track and not a drag strip as you suggest. Secondly, anyone who loves their Subaru can register their car at any amateur racing event; there's a racing event held here in San Diego at Qualcomm Stadium and all kinds of cars are there. History has shown the Corvettes race the shortest lap times at this track (at or around 54 seconds) with cars like the Mazda RX8's finishing around very suprising 56-57 seconds (great-looking cars on this track, I might add!). Cars like yours usually finish very late, around 65 seconds and such. No one in their right mind would accept your fantasy that your car can remotely touch a stock Vette let alone a Z06; your car would lose to any stock vette save for the C1's and C2's. Even if your car is heavily modified, you cannot bypass the laws of physics, Mike. -- The Subaru Legacy GT-- heavy, pondering, 250 hp near sport sedan that retails around Honda Accord territory ($25,000) cannot compete against a toned-down version of a podium-finishing endurance racer that won virtually every world-renown endurance racing circuit it ever participated in (24-hr at LeMans; ALMS). Your car is going against a car that routinely defeats Porsche GT-class and Viper GTS-class racing cars. Heavy, numb, $25,000 3-Series contender with a steel chassis, 250 horsepower turbo'ed I4, standard family sedan clutch, .86g of grip on the skidpad and foregone technology versus a near-exotic that has carbon fiber panels, all-aluminum chassis construction, an Empire State-moving engine with 500 horsepower and 490 ft/lbs of torque that's arguably the most tuned powerplant in the industry and 19" tires that runs on EMT tires that can pull well over .95g's of grip, magnesium engine cradle and an illustrius racing history on the world's endurance racing circuits? I'd go with the latter... Mike, you can register your Subaru in an amateur, local racing event and actually race it in a class, but in the end it's still just a Subaru.
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Replying to: pmc4 (Nov 19, 2007 9:34 pm)
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Replying to: hotrod81 (Nov 20, 2007 3:50 am) 
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Replying to: paisan (Nov 19, 2007 4:35 pm) If you've driven that many miles on track (road course) then you should know that passing anything is a function of driver, not the vehicle. I pass Z06's in my C5 coupe, even a few C6 Z06s, so what? I only have 5 years on track and 2 doing some volunteer work in the right seat but I pass GT3 911s fairly regularly, again so what? If the driver doesn't have the experience it isn't a fair match. There is one particular Honda Civic that I remember seeing going by me at Laguna Seca last year, great driver in a well set up car, boosted. If you run with groups that allow timing at road courses then you will see 911's and C5Z06's at the top of most charts. The C6Z is in another world altogether. My C5 coupe on street tires ($40k/$45k new) is usually faster than even the Boxster S on DOT-Rs, at least one has never passed me, yet, and they run $40k-$90k if you believe Edmunds. At the track $ usually translates to pretty good potential but some cars are a better bang for the buck and the C5 is one, then again the 4wd Evo and WRX cars are probably better and the S2000 is great. Here on the left coast, at least at Sears Point, Laguna Seca, Thunderhill, Reno- Fernley and Buttonwillow what you are likely to see on track is as much a function of who is running the event as anything else. Some groups started as single marque clubs and expanded to run events for all marques but still get large showings from their original roots. We have had two all Corvette events at Thunderhill in the past year and I just got back from going to Spring Mt. Raceway in Pahrump to instruct at a Corvette Museum event that pulled in Vette's from all over the country. Expect to see more Vettes at a track near you, and when the drivers learn to get around quickly, don't be surprised at being passed. Then, of course, I'm sure it will be the HP and not the driver that made the difference. Randy |
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Replying to: andys120 (Nov 19, 2007 11:00 am) Then again, it might just be more fun to drive a fast car, really fast! At the Corvette Museum track event a couple weekends ago at Spring Mt. Raceway in Pahrump, NV there were close to 50% C6Z06's of the cars entered. Really a street legal race car and everyone at least stayed out of the walls and tire barriers, if not always staying on track. For $75k you get exotic car performance and in a package that is amazingly durable. There were 9 cars from GM there with over 20 staff folks and a few former professional drivers and the cars were going out in 4 of the 5 sessions repeatedly during the day. Of course a couple techs were swapping in new brake pads at the end of day one since it seems some folks were harder on the brakes than others. Randy |
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