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Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion - READ ONLY

522 messages,  Last post on Dec 08, 2007 at 6:07 PM

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What is this discussion about? Porsche 911, Chevrolet Corvette, Ferrari F430, Lotus Exige, Lotus Elise, Coupe

#21 of 522 Corvette ZR-1 by xkss Apr 07, 2005 (2:12 pm)
They price for a ZR-1 back in 1990 was around $60,000 or so. I've heard some paid over $100,000 when they first came out. A 1990 ZR-1 would cost over $100,000 in today's money and the new Z06 will out-perform it and is an all-around better car.   Nothing under $100,000 will touch the new Z06. Sure there is the Lotus Elise, but it is won't be as comforable or practical as the Z06.
#22 of 522 it's a complex issue by Mr_Shiftright HOST Apr 07, 2005 (5:25 pm)
Again, that's just numbers on paper. When you drive real cars there are all kinds of other considerations. In the same way that an Elise may not be as "good as" a Corvette in certain areas (let's say comfort or reliability), so too the Corvette may not be as good as the Boxster S.   Corvette has at least 3 things that will keep it uninteresting to Ferrari or Porsche owners: 1) it is made of fiberglass 2) it is a Chevrolet and 3) it has no record in international racing, only domestic. And while GM can't really do much about the first two---it could compete internationally however I think, since they finallly have a car that is competitive. Prior to that, Corvettes did not have the endurance for European racing. Basicallyl they blew up before 24 hours or fried their brakes or some such.   To YOU (or me perhaps), no big deal these 3 things--I shop bargains, not snobbery--, but to buyers with deep pockets, those are significant things that affect their buying decisions.   Add to those 3 above the issues of build quality or size or interior or styling or exclusivity, and you have a complex set of circumstances that determine who buys what.   Last of all, these various cars have amazingly different personalities. A Corvette is NOTHING like a Porsche which is NOTHING like a Ferrari. It's not like we are jumping from Toyota to Nissan to Honda, where you can hardly tell the difference in how they drive or sound or even look.   So you'd expect wild variations in buyer preferences. You like redheads, I like blondes, like that......   Case in point: The Porsche I drive, a 928, is much like a Corvette in drivetrain, sound and size---and most Porsche buyers hated it.   Replies to this message: xkss (Apr 07, 2005 11:41 pm)
#23 of 522 Re: it's a complex issue [Mr_Shiftright] by xkss Apr 07, 2005 (11:41 pm)
Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Apr 07, 2005 5:25 pm) 1) Fiberglass weighs less than metals and is more resistant to dents.   2) Not to be rude, but do you have facts to support your assumption that Ferrari and Porsche owners won't consider the 2006 Corvette Z06?   3) Has no record in international racing? The Corvette doesn't have the racing heritage of a 911, but Porsche doesn't back the new 997 in racing.   The following is from Corvettemuseum.com   "[On July 10th, 1994] At the four-hour endurance GT Championship race at Vallelunga, Italy, A Callaway SuperNatural Corvette LM driven by Andreas Fuchs and Enrico Bertaggia finishes first in GT-2 class and second overall, behind a Ferrari F40."   Two Corvette C5-Rs went 1-2 in the GTS class at the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 2001, 2002 and again in 2004.   Porsche has had a few RMS leaks (rear main seal) in its new 2005 911. The previous 996 suffered from them too along with the previous Boxster which first came out in 1997!   I'm sorry to say it, but Porsche sold out when they made the Cayenne. Anyone with a driver's license can drive a 996 Turbo with an automatic transmission. The 911 Turbo used to be the wild 911, but is it with an automatic transmission?   Not to be rude, but have you driven the 2006 Corvette Z06?
#24 of 522 xkss by rorr Apr 08, 2005 (4:38 am)
1. I believe that shifty was talking about the Corvette from a historical perspective. Which is why, when he talked about competition in international racing, he said that "they finally have a car that is competitive."   2. Check historical records for international racing for the Porsche vs. the Corvette. Yes, the current Corvette does the job but HISTORICALLY, you simply can't compare them. Does this impact the current performance of the two cars? Not a bit.   3. As far as I know, no one here (unless we've got some Chevy engineers/test drivers lurking) has driven an '06 Z06. Have you?   4. I'm not sure why this has turned into a Porsche vs. Corvette pissing match. They are both sports cars and I'm fairly certain that no one here has tried to say the Corvette is anything but. Do Corvettes go like stink? Yes. Do they offer in many ways better performance for less money than Porsches? Yes. Does this mean that one would have to be an poseur to buy a Porsche? No. All that is being said is that they drive differently and appeal to different types of drivers. If you want to take offense at that observation, well, sorry..
#25 of 522 Just checked my poseur meter by designman Apr 08, 2005 (5:37 am)
This "purist" notion of a sports car is funny. It’s like a bull-riding rodeo cowboy criticizing people who own and ride horses, or a Cigarette racer criticizing those who sail.   None of us will be playing at Augusta National this weekend. I guess anyone else who swings a golf club is not a golfer. Elise, Boxster, Corvette, 911 and Ferrari owners are all 10-15-20-handicap golfers.   As far as this Vette/Boxster thing, there is a reason why 5 out of 9 R&T editors chose the Boxster over nine other sports cars as their favorite, and it’s the same reason why you prefer wearing bluejeans.   See it as you care to. As far as I am concerned a Miata is a sports car and I’m not ready to stop going to the gym because I am not Michael Jordan.
#26 of 522 Too Deep ... by starrow68 Apr 08, 2005 (8:18 am)
Guess that's why I'm satisfied with the Corvette. I don't have any history in performance cars and a dozen years in an MG was fun but never gave me the illusion that it was anything but cheap fun. Then again I have always tried to get value when I expend hard earned $'s and don't understand most impulse buyers, I'm still a wage slave like the vast majority, so I have limits on what I can do. But with the kid out of college the Corvette seemed tame, $ wise, compared to the XK8 that I was thinking about, just glad I didn't go that route . I agree with designman in that we are all wannabe's in a world that only hears about world class.    As for the Porsche thing with Vettes I'll defer to a buddy that used to race them, be a PCA instructor and has owned several performance ones, currently has a TT, in that he noted that he is a porcupine. Seems to be a Porsche inside joke. That leads me to believe that even in the Porsche camp there is some difference in attitude. That may be why it got to be so much fun passing Porsche's when I go to the track, some take it so badly. OTOH I've given rides to some Porsche drivers to discuss line and taken rides from others as well. Hey, people are different! Randy
#27 of 522 couple points by Mr_Shiftright HOST Apr 08, 2005 (11:11 am)
I don't think anyone said that a Corvette wasn't a sports car, did they? I sure didn't.   I think we were talking about why Porsche and Ferrari owners don't want Corvettes as a rule, and our general topic of conversation was preferences among sportscars and why there are preferences.   We spoke of performance, history, style, heritage, prestige, resale value, "feel" of the car and exclusivity as all being factors in a buying decision, not just 0-60 and skidpad numbers.   These are REAL THINGS, not "snobbery" or whatever. These are tangibles and people pull out their checkbooks for them.   If people just bought numbers, the fastest car would always sell the best, but it doesn't.   RE: Racing History   Yes historically is the fairest way to factor the current impact of Corvette's past international racing history, because history is one of the reasons people buy Ferraris and Porsches. Couple wins here and there doesn't equal 60 years -----60 YEARS! of international victories!   And even IF Corvette were to start winning really serious international races quite regularly, they'd pull out as soon as they won. American car companies never stick it out through thick and thin in racing, which is another reason people buy the heritage of Porsche and Ferrari. The cars are "winners" and everybody wants a winner, right? Americans race for marketing, Europeans race for love, is what I think anyway (not the drivers, I mean the factories).   As for the fiberglass issue, people spending $100K and up want real metal. It's not a criticism of fiberglass, it's just making a point about why some people prefer Ferraris and Porsches to Corvettes. Maybe they are DUMB for wanting metal, I don't know.   Aluminum siding is also a LOT better than redwood for old houses, but.....   Last of all, being on a track is only one place a sportscar does its job...the sportscars we drive off showroom floors have to live in a variety of environments, and track work, while important, is only one of many levels of achievement a true sports car should be tested on.   I don't want to get into where Corvette falls down but it isn't a perfect car and we all know that---nor is any car perfect.   So we look at the whole picture and different buyers find different areas of importance to them.     Replies to this message: xkss (Apr 11, 2005 10:16 am) Mr_Shiftright (Apr 11, 2005 10:49 am)
#28 of 522 shifty by rorr Apr 08, 2005 (11:22 am)
"Aluminum siding is also a LOT better than redwood for old houses, but..... "   oh, that was just brutal....
#29 of 522 forgive me by Mr_Shiftright HOST Apr 08, 2005 (12:54 pm)
Now now that wasn't my intention....I was only pointing out that not every buying decision is RATIONAL....in fact I wonder if with sports cars ANY buying decision is rational....   I remember one guy driving me around in Car X and his head was like scrunched up against the sunroof (I TOLD him not to buy one with a sunroof) and I commented on how uncomfortable that must be for him, and he downshifted, punched the gas and said "Yeah, but....."
#30 of 522 I dunno shifty..... by rorr Apr 08, 2005 (1:57 pm)
...sounded like you were making a left handed comparison of Corvettes to aluminum siding. You know, redwood has so much more "history, style, heritage, prestige, resale value, "feel".....and exclusivity".   I was kinda kidding with my last post, but the more I think about, the more I can see GM fans drawing that conclusion.

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